Announcement SV National Dex UU Stage 7: Manos

[Lupla]

After a very long time, the machinery of the future and one of our recent threats in our radar. The National Dex UU Council has decided to Suspect Test Iron Hands.​

Suspect Reasoning:
While Iron Hands has had quite a bit of a volatile presence in the history of the tier, this hasn’t prevented it from being in the mind of the community in regards to its healthiness in the tier. Even during the days of Thundurus-Therian and Latios, it was always a strong part of the metagame that hadn’t quite gotten the status of “Problematic”. This isn’t the case anymore, as now those previously oppressive threats have left the tier, there’s nothing that’s stopping Iron Hands from taking over as a centralizing part of the metagame. Its amazing bulk, typing and power are on full display, leaving us with the decision to start a Suspect.

Iron Hands has been mostly straight forward with its Swords Dance and Choice Band sets, not seeing much of a change this entire time, but the way it interacted with the tier both in teambuilding and in battle has been on a constant change. Its titanic bulk and good resistances give it an insane matchup spread of Pokemon it can both switch in to and beat; from the offensive side it’s capable of dealing with massive threats like M-Tyranitar, Zapdos-G, Iron Moth, Greninja, Aegislash, Scizor, Zeraora, Magnezone or Thundurus-I and some defensive staples like Celesteela, Skarmory and sometimes even Ting-Lu.

From that point it can use its bulk to setup and proceed to threaten them with really good stabs and coverage that’s only properly handled by M-Venusaur, Hippowdon and the really niche Sinistcha while making it harder for most of the soft defensive checks like Clefable, M-Latias or Amoonguss or go for an immediate assault with Choice Band that nothing truly likes to take on, especially with other passive damage like hazards and sandstorm and can completely negate some of the counterplay for Swords Dance sets.

Despite all of this, Iron Hands does have its number of issues. Its low speed means Iron Hands has to take multiple hits during a match alongside hazards, making revenge killing it with things that usually don’t wanna face it at full health like Excadrill, Enamorus and the newly introduced Iron Boulder more easy. The recent meta trends don’t really help it either; its main defensive answers are also quite common as M-Venusaur, Hippowdon and Skeledirge have gotten better while the older ones like Clefable and M-Latias still roam around, the influence of M-Venusaur, Celesteela and Ting-Lu also brought attention to things like Alakazam, M-Gardevoir and Victini which Iron Hands isn’t quite fond of. Lastly, despite how threatening it can be, Swords Dance sets really want to set up in order to get the progress they want so they need careful positioning while Choice Band has to play around resists while having to be forced out after taking something down. These problems are certainly notable but it doesn’t deter Iron Hands from being one of best pokemon around, capable of trading with nearly anything and succeeding in most cases.

Suspect Test Information

• Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 40 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 20 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 40 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice.

Minimum Games Needed

GXE	minimum games
79	40
79.2	39
79.4	38
79.6	37
79.8	36
80	35
80.2	34
80.4	33
80.6	32
80.8	31
81	30
81.2	29
81.4	28
81.6	27
81.8	26
82	25
82.2	24
82.4	23
82.6	22
82.8	21
83	20

• You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NDUU9HANDS. For example, I could sign up and qualify with the name NDUU9HANDS lupla.
• You may not impersonate or mock another user with your account name. If there is any slight hesitation, you're probably better off picking a different name. We reserve the right to null your voting requisites if you are found impersonating or mocking another user with your account name. Moderator discretion will be applied.
• If you are found trying to manipulate voting requisites in any way, you will be met with a harsh infraction. Manipulating voting requisites ranges from faking your screenshot to asking another user to forfeit.
• The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Iron Hands, will be allowed on the National Dex UU ladder for the next two weeks so that we can properly assess its position in the metagame.

The suspect test will last for 2 weeks, until April 29th 11:59 PM GMT -3. Tagging dhelmise and Marty to implement this on the ladder whenever possible! Thank you for the support.

 

[Danbear02]

I guess I'll share my thoughts on Hands because nobody else has. People in the NDUU Discord seem to be split on whether its broken or simply incredibly good, so I wanted to share what the state of the meta is in my eyes and if Hands is too good.

Currently, the main styles I see are Sand Offenses (Mega Tyranitar + Excadrill), Standard Offenses (often built around strong attackers like Choice Band/Z Iron Boulder, Greninja, and Iron Moth), and Fatter structures (typically Ting-Lu + Mega Venusaur + Celesteela). Stall and Hyper Offense both exist, but Stall is fairly fringe, and Hyper Offense can fall flat with many of the Brokens removed from the tier.

Both Choice Band and Swords Dance Iron Hands have incredible matchups into most, if not all, team styles in the metagame. Additionally, both versions can mandate different checks to them. Clefable, Quagsire, and Rotom-W can often handle Swords Dance variants, but get blown up by Banded Wild Charge or Close Combats. Mons like Mega Latias or Aegislash may try and pivot into a resisted move from Choice Band, only to have the Hands Swords Dance and threaten an OHKO.

The main issue I have with Iron Hands is that it forces a check to it onto every team, and it can often beat those checks many ways. I have included Mega Venusaur on nearly every team composition I have built over the past few weeks, and this is solely due to its ability to handle most variants of Iron Hands. However, Mega Venusaur is a phenomenal defensive mon, which means that there are plenty of other threats for it to check. This alongside low Synthesis PP, a crippling fear of Tyranitar, and a weakness to hazards, means that Mega Venusaur can often be worn down into Choice Band range, or Iron Hands can grab multiple Swords Dances to beat it. Keep in mind, due to its absurd bulk, it is not 2HKO'd by Modest Mega Venusaur's Earth Power.

This happens with many of Iron Hands would be checks. Rotom-W can burn Hands, but can allow it to just SD past burn damage. Mega Latias is OHKO'd by +2 Ice Punch after Stealth Rocks, and cannot 2HKO hands without Psychic. Clefable is outsped and either chips Hands while it gets to +4 or just dies to Choice Band.

The reason Iron Hands is able to do this is because of its absurd bulk. This thing lives everything, and makes it incredibly annoying and frustrating to play against and around. It can either use its bulk to get onto the field to throw around massive Choice Banded attacks or to grab free opportunities to set up wherever it goes.

Honestly, this thing reminds me of Melmetal. Able to live hits it definitely should not, monumental bulk, and ability to beat its checks through customizability or sheer power. I want to discuss one more thing, but before that here are some calcs.

Calcs

252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 318-374 (70.8 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 28 HP / 252 SpD Iron Hands: 198-234 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 92 SpD Iron Hands: 184-217 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 28 HP / 252 SpD Iron Hands: 153-180 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 28 HP / 252 SpD Iron Hands: 124-147 (27.1 - 32.2%) -- 56.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
156+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Earth Power vs. 28 HP / 252 SpD Iron Hands: 192-228 (42.1 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 364-430 (81 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 222-264 (48.6 - 57.8%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

The problem with Iron Hands is not that it can live these hits. In fact, these are some of the stronger hits that Hands takes during a game, typically because they come from Mons that are supposed to check it. The issue is that Hands invalidates much of the counterplay against it through one move: Drain Punch.

I actually like Choice Band Iron Hands. It's unwallable, but requires good prediction not to thud into a resist or immunity, and rewards aggressive predictions and plays to get it in safely. But Swords Dance is, in my opinion, so much more problematic simply due to the fact that getting damage onto Iron Hands is difficult, and the second you get a play wrong, Iron Hands can Drain Punch and be back up to full HP. This is the factor that allows Hands to be such a "trade monster", as people often describe it. It is always able to trade 1 for 1 in a matchup, if not more. I honestly believe that Swords Dance Iron Hands is the reason why Sand has seen a drastic decrease in usage, as when your primary threat allows essentially free entry to Iron Hands and your structure cannot support a sturdier Iron Hands check than Clefable, it can be difficult to play around Iron Hands healing to full off of half your team.

I legitimately believe that Hands can check nearly any threat in the meta. This power to check nearly everything and use half the tier as recovery points to accentuate its incredibly threatening offensive profile alongside its bulk makes Hands one of the most threatening and frustrating mons to play against. For all these reasons, I will be voting Ban on Iron Hands.

OK I didn't actually realize I had this much to say on Hands. Would love to hear arguments for Iron Hands staying too, as I'm curious what thoughts are on that side. Anyways be careful out there: I used to be a Stall player too, until I took a Wild Charge to the knee.

Danbear out