Announcement np: SV CAP Stage 2: Heart of Glass (Hemogoblin Nerf)

[spoo]

​

With CAPCL having just finished, it's become clear to the metagame coucil and general public that a proper nerf to Hemogoblin is in order.

Because Hemogoblin was made at the start of the generation when power creep was at its lowest, and because its central concept was to be a strong Pokemon despite having average or less-than-average stats, we decided to give it access to an incredibly strong option that would give it an immediate niche and secure its viability even after multiple DLCs: Pixilate Extreme Speed. With its potent Extreme Speed, combined with boosts from Bulk Up, the ability to heal while attacking with Bitter Blade, and a truly ridiculous amount of versatility between its 4th moveslot and various Tera types, Hemogoblin has been various shades of overpowered since the day it came out––even despite losing several powerful moves and a small amount of stats in its Post-Play Lookback roughly a year ago. Due to continuous meta shifts from DLCs/Pokemon HOME, OU bans, new CAP releases, and more, it has been difficult to address the issue of Hemogoblin in a timely manner; however, we've now reached a point in the metagame where we can safely conduct this nerf, and it would be a disservice to the playerbase to wait any longer.

While Hemogoblin's Pixilate-boosted Extreme Speed makes it immediately oppressive into offensive structures, its longevity, versatility, and general lack of resilient defensive answers can make it equally as oppressive against balance teams in the long term. Hemogoblin fits seamlessly onto any archetype not named stall, and there is hardly any opportunity cost to running it; because of its unique offensive attributes (and even its defensive attributes against Pokemon like Dragapult, Kyurem, and Weavile), you can almost guarantee it's going to prove its worth in any given match. Hemogoblin is not easy to revenge kill for obvious reasons, nor is it easy to prevent setting up or punish for doing so––Bitter Blade often means that damage done to Hemogoblin doesn't "stick," and 4th move options like Moonlight and Taunt can let it bypass certain weak attackers or generally passive counterplay. Of course, this is also not to mention the litany of other more niche options it can viably make use of, like Spikes, Wish, Fire Lash, AOA Choice Band sets, or even more, making Hemogoblin easily fit the specifications of almost any team's needs. It is a Pokemon that demands immediate response once it hits the field, but is happy to play patiently and noncommittally itself until it can safely transition from the role of revenge-killer to that of an endgame cleaner with Bulk Up. We hope to successfully address this asymmetry and Hemogoblin's general lack of counterplay by the time this thread concludes, using the community's input as a guide.

1. The CAP Metagame Council identifies a broken/unhealthy threat. Input from the metagame discussion thread, Discord, high-level tournament replays, etc. are ways the community can voice their concerns to the CAP Metagame council.

2. The CAP Metagame Council begins a thread. The OP, written by the CAP Metagame Council, summarizes why the Pokemon is broken. Metagame shifts, game mechanics changing, or OU bans can be potential points. The CAP Metagame council will also include a checks and counters list. Hard-counters to soft-checks, hazard damage, relative ability to switch-in, etc. should be considered. Keep in mind that with the broken Pokemon in the metagame, we can continue to understand why it is broken.

3. In the thread, the community discusses the simplest solution(s) to making the CAP not broken. Here, we can well-define a new list of checks and counters. Some solutions may be changing its ability to one that's similar but not as good, reducing its speed tier, removing some of its bulk or attack, or removing a certain move or two from its movepool. The community will play a huge role in identifying what solutions are available, but CAP Metagame Council will have the final say on what nerf is implemented. Keep in mind that the nerf(s) that is(are) implemented MUST preserve the identity of the CAP (i.e. Necturna uses Sketch, Pajantom uses its powerful trapping move, etc.).

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Rules for posting in this thread:

• Do not post one liners, nor uninformed posts.
• Do not hold discussion on other potential nerfing processes.
• Do not hold discussion on the nerfing system.
• You are required to make respectful posts.
• If you fail to follow these rules, your post will be deleted and you may be infracted.

We're aiming for this Nerfing Process to last for approximately 2 weeks.

 

[quziel]

The fundamental problem I have with hemo sorta comes down to how absurd of a Terastalization abuser it is. Kingambit may be OU's #1 tera abuser, but Hemogoblin takes that and runs with it. While Kingambit can tera to get an extra setup turn, to avoid a revenge kill, Hemo can do all of that, and thanks to its access to recovery, both through Bitter Blade and Wish/Moonlight, and just run with it.

Trying to guess Hemo's 4th slot is not particularly easy, and its choice of last move, combined with its choice of Tera can wildly change its counterplay. Tera Blast Ground/Water all let it fairly easily bypass would-be checks such as Heatran and Mollux, Wish/Moonlight combined with Tera Poison mean that you straight up wall standard Venomicon, and can use it both for setup, and wish passing for the entire game afterwards. Taunt combined with Knock Off support elsewhere mean that you don't even need to bother with Tera to bypass Venom.

Connected to this are how its stats allow for a variety of EV spreads that can make guessing whether you can beat it fairly annoying. Spdef sets saw an uptick in usage late in CAPCL, and let you do somewhat silly stuff like take 60% from Libra's EP, and have a roll to avoid a 3hko from Cresceidon.

My other issue with the mon is how pointless it feels to try to chip it during setup turns. With a pokemon like Bulk Up Tusk you can often play the game of whether you're gonna swap out fearing a SE hit, or attack into a potential Bulk Up, and it 100% has to respect that, because its HP is a very limited resource. With Hemo you can just avoid that limitation; between Bitter Blade letting you heal any chip you took while setting up, and Espeed potentially denying a revenge kill, it just plays differently from comparable sweepers.

I guess my preferred "answers" would be some mix of the following:

1) Reduce attack
This means that you're less effective at revenge killing, sweeping, and means you recover less from Bitter Blade, thus also affecting bulk. Due to how numbers work, this also affects the spdef sets more than the offensive sets.

2) Reduce bulk on at least one side
Forces Hemo to be more careful with how its being brought in, reduces the effective healing of Bitter Blade (depending on if we nerf defenses or base HP).

3) Remove Bitter Blade
Fairly simple one, but removing Bitter Blade means damage sticks onto Hemo a lot more easily, and means it has to slot on Wish or Moonlight in order to stay alive. This doesn't necessarily affect the fat sets, as they were running recovery, but making chip stick is really nice. Its also unclear how the mon would play with Fire Lash as its primary attack. This one likely isn't enough on its own.

4) Replace Extremespeed with Quick Attack
I think this is probably the "most effective" route, in that it almost definitely ensures the mon isn't a problem. That said I do fear this could potentially be going too far, as its literally halving the power of Hemo's strongest tool. That said I suspect the mon might stay in the A ranks even with its best option at half strength.

 

[spoo]

Some initial thoughts:

Removing Extreme Speed, regardless of how "effective" it would be, is almost definitely off the table. Removing Bulk Up also seems unlikely, although to a lesser degree. I don't want to speak for the rest of the council, but I have an immensely hard time seeing either of these moves be cut. These are the options most tied to Hemogoblin's current identity and removing them would a) be huge overkill and b) open a giant can of worms, as we'd likely have to counter-balance the removal with a moderate buff in the opposite direction, and we'd have very little idea of how the mon would function after its playstyle takes such a massive hit. It's similar logic as to why we didn't cut Nasty Plot from Venomicon when it was nerfed last generation; we don't need to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut here.

Removing Bitter Blade is a popular option and for good reason. Part of the reason why fighting Hemogoblin can feel like such an uphill battle is because it can just undo most of the progress you make vs it while making significant progress itself. While I don't hate the notion of axing Bitter, ultimately I don't think it's the right path. In Bitter Blade's absence, Hemogoblin likely resorts to running Fire Lash, Flare Blitz, or potentially both on the same set, and I think it's too difficult to predict how its counterplay changes. Pokemon that it lost to with Bitter Blade it now beats by using one or both of these two moves. While cutting Bitter Blade would likely be effective, I think it's too volatile and simply unnecessary when we have other measures that get the job done.

Its 4th move options are where a lot of the problems arise. Quziel already touched on a lot of this but I figure it bears repeating. Gonna be simplifying the benefits of some of these moves, but options include:

• Taunt, to let Hemogoblin deny recovery from checks like Venomicon, Garganacl, Dondozo, or Tera'd walls like Arghonaut after they switch in on a neutral attack, also being useful in a few random smaller interactions.
• Moonlight lets Hemogoblin easily stay healthy throughout a more prolonged match, and enables it to 1v1 stuff it should frankly have no right doing after popping Tera Fairy or Poison.
• Spikes make progress on turns where you're forcing something out and would otherwise just click ESpeed and thud into a physical wall. This option has fallen off recently in favor of Taunt/Moonlight but is still excellent given the strength of Spikes in this tier.
• Wish does much the same thing that Moonlight does, but is a little funnier and can support teammates.
• Ground or Water Tera Blast notably bypass Heatran, Garganacl, Skeledirge, and Mollux (in the case of Ground).
• Will-O-Wisp cripples certain switchins like Venomicon-E, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Cresceidon among others.
• Fire Lash seriously eases your matchup against Venomicon, Unaware Pokemon, and makes you generally a headache to pivot around. Also pairs well with Tera Fire.
• Explosion and Trick enable Choice Band sets, although I don't think they're very consistent.
• Imprison makes you a decent check to (most) opposing Hemogoblin.
• I don't believe Protect has been clicked in tournament setting, but I think it's actually decent, given how much Hemogoblin counterplay revolves around the opponent Terastallizing on the right turn.
• Substitute gives the finger to Arghonaut, which is actually fairly useful for certain HOs.
• Wild Charge somehow feels like the worst of the bunch, but it has valid use cases.

The thing is––all of these are actually viable, affect very different forms of counterplay, and have compounding benefits with different Tera types (you can run Fairy, Poison, Ground, Fire, Water, probably Rock, probably Electric, Tera Grass won me circuit champs). I think the relative strength of each option also goes down once others are removed, since you can more safely assume its 4th move and act accordingly. Obviously we can't cut some of these (Tera Blast, Substitute, Protect, Wisp), but nonetheless, we need to do a big clean-up job here.

I'd also like to see a small stats nerf. One big reason for this is it further leans into Hemogoblin's central concept: making a poor statline work well. The second reason being, I think it's just the most effective route; Hemogoblin essentially has 90/90/90 bulk, which makes it really damn hard to properly dent when you factor in its typing, access to healing, ability to boost its Defense, and being a phenomenal Tera user. Unfortunately, I think the tier hugely appreciates Hemogoblin's defensive utility versus stuff like Kyurem and Dragapult, but something's gotta give. I don't believe anything massive is in order, but the mon is just too hard to punish in its current state.

An Attack cut is also an option, and one that I liked a lot before DLC2. Hemogoblin felt incredibly overbearing for offensive structures, and its nuclear Extreme Speed was the main culprit. Now though, I don't agree that a large Attack cut is necessary; if anything, I shudder to think about how offense in this meta would look without something like Hemogoblin to reign it in. Offense continues to innovate and is in a fine spot right now, and Hemogoblin does a lot to keep the playstyle honest; frankly, between offense and bulkier structures, I think Hemogoblin is often more problematic for the latter, largely because of its bulk and healing options. I can expand more on this point if anyone is skeptical but the post is getting long as-is.

In short, what I'd like to see happen:

• Cutting 4th move options (definitely Moonlight, Wish, Fire Lash; maybe Spikes, Explosion and/or Trick, and Wild Charge)
• Moderate bulk hit (probably to Special Defense)
• I don't think an Attack hit is necessary, but would not necessarily object to a small adjustment (thinking 5 points or less) alongside a less moderate bulk nerf

I'd also like to remind folks that we have a Fire-resistant HO sweeper with Dazzling currently in the oven. CAP 34 is poised to be a significant boon to offense, in large part because it makes the Hemogoblin matchup that much more bearable. I also simply don't believe Hemogoblin is as broken as it's usually made out to be, despite however this post might sound. The mon is hugely beneficial for the tier and helps far more than it hurts. For these reasons, I don't think anything more than a love tap is really justified.

 

[Anchor9]

Nerf suggestions:

1. Movepool:

A. I think such a slight change at replacing Bulk Up with Work Up would make a world of difference. Not being able to raise Defense allows Venomicon to more easily win the 1 v 1. It allows Landorus-T and Gliscor to more easily revenge-kill.

B. Spikes, Taunt, and Will-O-Wisp are important for Hemogoblin variety, but the unpredictability can be too much. Probably one of these three need to be removed, preferably Will-O-Wisp, since removing this provides higher check variety, with Landorus-T easily forcing a switch.

2. Stats: Not much to say. I guess take away a bit of bulk. 513 is a bit high for something looking to have mediocre stats. Something around Clefable (483) may be better, although none should be taken from Attack.

 

[Amamama]

Basing this a bit off Spoos post.
Specifically addressing the fourth moveslot is one of the most decisive steps we can take to make Hemo be easier to handle.
Imo of all the moves it can now slot In the last slot it should only keep one.
Between Spikes, Taunt, Trick, Wild Charge, Moonlight/Wish, Will-o-Wisp, Explosion, Fire Lash and Tera Blast it just has too many options to make it even more valuable to a team.
I don’t really have a preference for what should stay, but I feel like Spikes is a good option for removal as CAP has absolutely no lack of Spikes setters and -Spikes should have a beneficial impact on the meta as hazards are so prevalent and removal is so limiting on team structures.
Now sadly we can’t reasonably deny Tera Blast without looking like fools, so removing fourth moveslot options without touching anything else means Hemo ends up being more volatile likely than it has been.
Here’s where my preferred Nerf comes into play.
Imo removing Bitter Blade (and Fire Lash) solves two of the issues Spoo mentioned in his post.
The fourth slot becomes more constrained as you now have to pick between healing and coverage or utility. This alleviates a big issue with offensive Tera types on Hemo, as Tera Blast can only be used when dropping recovery or less likely set up.
This also limits its ability to control a game vs offense and at the same time pressure balance teams by forcing proactive answers, that can break through stuff like Taunt and Bitter Blade Healing.
I think - Bitter Blade on its own is not enough though. Imo the nerf should force Hemogoblin into Flare Blitz or Fire Punch.
Yes Blitz is much more initial power but it further limits Hemos ability to stay healthy during a sweep and opens additional counter play, while Fire Punch is really weak and would require Hemo to set up more boosts to sweep, while limiting its breaking power early Game.

TLDR
Suggested Nerfs:
- Bitter Blade and Fire Lash
(Hemo now has to rely on Flare Blitz or Fire Punch as Fire STAB, which either cuts into Bulk or Power. At the same time it has to decide between Healing or Coverage/Utility, resulting in even further cuts to bulk or much less versatility)
- Limit 4th moveslot to one option and Tera Blast
(Hemo really doesn’t need all of these fourth moves. Especially Spikes feels rather unnecessary because there’s a huge variety of Spikes in CAP rn.)

This will result in Hemo having to decide between being more easily checked and more often losing Momentum, when deciding to run Recovery alongside Espeed, Bulk Up and Flare Blitz/Fire Punch or losing all of its sustainability, when choosing to run no Recovery, while also limiting its fourth move flexibility.

I don’t think you ever drop Bulk Up but if you do to have both Coverage/Utility and Healing you severely limit its sweeping Capabilities.

Overall this might increase Hemos set variety in a sense, but that variety comes at the cost of slot compression and I believe it will be much easier to predict, what Hemo runs given the team structure it is used on, whereas rn the freedom of choice Hemo has for the 4th slot makes it a huge guessing game for large parts of a game.

 

[SHSP]

was sick as a dog for the first few days of this so apologies for being a bit delayed, speaking as a user not council, all that jazz

My thoughts on Hemo bounce back and forth every time I think about it, but I think I've got them pretty down and solid now that I'm writing this. It's too strong, and though I think you can argue that it does a lot of good things for the meta (a universal revenge option to otherwise-very deadly mons like Roaring Moon, Iron Valiant, etc is very nice), I find it harder and harder to justify having it be THIS good at everything it does.

Spoo pointed out Espeed is probably not cuttable, and I do begrudgingly agree. Its the single most important/defining aspect of Hemo and its really hard to take that away... and honestly, I think its only part of the problem. Quz summed it up really well in his post earlier: this is a set up sweeper you cannot revenge, and you also can't chip it down right now. I'd much rather address the latter part. Bitter Blade and its healing repertoire make it incredibly long lasting and gives it a ton of chances to go for game, wearing down checks, forcing out defensive Tera options, and generally making a lot of situations where its just incredibly hard to play against it long-term. I definitely agree with Spoo's observation that Hemo is a lot stronger into bulkier teams right now where it forces really hard endgames, rather than against offensive teams that can pressure it pre-setup effectively with stuff like Gunk Shot Cinderace, offensive Heatran, and Venomicon-Epilogue that's trending upwards in offensive structures right now.

Fourth move stuff is also a large pain point for me, especially considering how effective Hemo is at using Tera. Spoo ran through the gauntlet of last options and covered them really in depth, and even though some of them are a lot rarer than others, even the common ones end up making the mon play super differently in some cases. Tera Water/Ground Blast Hemo is trying to blow up some of the more offensive checks, compared to how Taunt or Moonlight/Wish target more fat structures and aim to play a long game (usually paired with a more defensive Tera option like Poison). Tapping these down is another route I support, especially the healing options like I'd mentioned before.

Stats wise, I agree that it could use a hit, moreso to bulk than offenses. I haven't had much of a chance to look at what individual numbers changes do yet, though, so I'll refrain from too much discussion there.

Lastly, I think some of the posts above are right that Hemo does do a lot of decent to good things for the meta, though I wouldn't go as far as to say that it helps more than it hurts. I'm always someone who's going to favor a bit of a heavier hand when it comes to stuff like this, even with us staring down the barrel of another Hemo answer (of questionable viability as of right now) in the upcoming CAP34. I don't want to butcher the mon if we can help it (that would probably be a -ESpeed or -Bulk Up route, I'd think), but I wouldn't be too afraid of swinging the nerf hammer hard here; the core options that Hemo has access to that we're not looking to cut are quite strong and I think can still carve out a solid place without as much fluff as it has now.

 

[Samirsin]

After having played a lot of Hemogoblin (and Scattervein too!) matches, what I think makes it unstoppable is being able to heal after doing Bulk Up. Extreme Speed should not be removed at all, it's what makes Hemogoblin, well, Hemogoblin. Viable recovery and a way to boost the defenses is what makes it hard to deal with. With this comes my question, do we keep Bulk Up but lower defenses or keep defenses and remove Bulk Up. One has more impact than the other as in the first case we can simply do two Bulk Ups and in the second there's no way to do that. Tera exists, creating more opportunities to Bulk Up and start ESpeeding. My suggestion is:
- Bulk Up
+ Howl or Work Up
- Bitter Blade
- Fire Lash
- Spikes

By doing this the Attack boosts still exist and the Extreme Speed calcs are kept the same, mantaining original Hemogoblin's identity, like Anchor9 said. No Defense boosts (unless you decide to use Defense Curl for some reason) make it now more frail and prone to switches or to Tera earlier. No recovery at the same time as attacking (Bitter Blade) means it now fears more those Pokémon it can't OHKO. This would make the player decide between Flare Blitz or Temper Flare (DLC 2 move!). Removing Spikes also now makes it more passive against those Pokémon it can't damage as easily. Wish and Moonlight become less threatening when it can't boost its Defense, that's why I didn't touch those, also not to nerf it too much.
Making recovery harder makes it more prone to give EVs on HP, losing Speed EVs, which are necessary to outspeed Heatran.

Also, what do you think about Slack Off instead of Moonlight, so it can't recover more on Sun? Would it be too much?

TLDR: It still sweeps, but won't be able to do it as easily. Basically putting a timer on it. Same strength, different durability.

 

[koista12]

I think Amamama's proposal is the best route going forward - Bitter Blade is the primary component that makes Hemo really oppresive, and it really doesn't need 5 or so options in the last slot.

Concensus seems to be that removing Bitter Blade is a given, but I do think that removing Bitter Blade + Bulk Up + other options as Samirsin suggests is honestly overkill. The purpose of a nerf isn't to run Hemogoblin into the ground but rather to make it less outstanding compared to other options in the meta. Removing Bulk Up on top of all the other nerfs just makes Hemo into a glorified Extreme Speed bot, which is fine I guess, but I think it's overly restrictive.

 

[kenn]

I truly believe that -Bitter Blade and -Fire Lash is the way to go. What this does is forces Hemogoblin to rely on its 4th slot for recovery (should it so wish for it hehe) which kinda makes the other options there a little bit less valuable and compete for that spot more as Hemo would want to have some form of recovery due to it setting up and having a recoil STAB in Flare Blitz and if drops Moonlight for coverage/utility, it will eventually be worn down due to said move.

I don't think that this nerf would disable Hemo too much as it's main niche is using Pixilate Extreme Speed and it wouldn't be losing that, but for it to "power through" things like Equilibra, Heatran, Mollux, and others it would need to rely on a STAB that wears it down or coverage that takes away its recovery.

That being said, I could also easily see a bulk decrease being just as effective. Hemogoblin's whole concept was to make a name for itself with less-than-average stats and not only that, but it has some key resistances despite the SR weakness, which allow it to utilize the bulk it does have effectively. However, if you make it harder for it to take hits, and set up a Bulk Up or two, then it would be hard pressed to get going. Dropping its special bulk to allow like uninvested Venomicon to OHKO with Sludge Bomb would be a cool benchmark for something like that I think.

Tl;Dr Lose the Fire "signature" moves but if not, then a bulk decrease.

 

[Dece1t]

I’m back for the usual “do not over-nerf” post. I’ll keep it short and sweet. -Bitter Blade. It requires Hemo to either sacrifice a move slot for recovery or sacrifice healing altogether for coverage/utility. That is the element that puts this mon over the edge. Cuts to bulk I feel are unnecessary with the recovery nerf in play, but -Fire Lash as well I would not be mad at (albeit more or less unnecessary). Don’t reinvent the wheel here, just stick to objectively what’s broken.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

I thought Hemogoblin was created with both Fire Lash and Bitter Blade in mind, considering the community wanted this CAP in particular to utilize signature moves. So one of its concepts would get thrown out the window

 

[Samirsin]

I thought Hemogoblin was created with both Fire Lash and Bitter Blade in mind, considering the community wanted this CAP in particular to utilize signature moves. So one of its concepts would get thrown out the window

Not exactly, they were given as those moves had a lot of synergy with its way of playing, but they were not part of the concept per se. More details in this post.

 

[Amamama]

I thought Hemogoblin was created with both Fire Lash and Bitter Blade in mind, considering the community wanted this CAP in particular to utilize signature moves. So one of its concepts would get thrown out the window

The concept was making mid stats work, not signature moves. Bitter Blade and Fire Lash were given, because we thought other Fire moves had too many drawbacks for a low bst Mon to work feasibly and especially Bitter Blades moveslot compression was meant to help Hemo achieve the mid stats concept. It was never the center of the concept or even a small part of it and as it stands it’s very likely one of the elements that makes Hemo such a standout in the current CAP meta.

 

[Rabia]

Since returning to play, I think there are two routes I pretty immediately support:

- Bitter Blade, OR
- Moonlight, - Wish

Recovery is pretty evidently why Hemogoblin is... a goblin in this metagame. It's obnoxious as hell to revenge kill as is because of Extreme Speed, but its overabundance of healing just makes breaking it too tall a task. The best set, Tera Poison with Bulk Up / Bitter Blade / Extreme Speed / Moonlight, is too consistent at sweeping teams that lack a Heatran, Arghonaut, or Encore Cresceidon, and the former two have their own issues with Hemogoblin as a whole and the other moves it can tech.

I think it's likely Hemogoblin needs a bit more than just recovery gutting. Its stats are pretty ridiculous given its typing and toolkit otherwise, and some sort of nerf to bulk or damage to, again, make revenge killing it less tedious than it currently is would do wonders I think.

 

[Waldinji]

I followed the discussion quickly and ... I do agree nerfing down one or 2 Areas just aren't going to cut it , It's been a whole year this mon is in charge of the format , and tapping it on the wrist if we do one option at a time just will do nothing.

This mon , from what I noticed , The more people look into it , the more opressive it becomes to check because it has so many options (First , just raw tera fairy , Then tera Fairy with knock off to annoy heatran , then once that's gone , we have spikes popping up to punish switch-ins , and now the set rabia mentioned that set up on veno (Its supposed counter)) . People mentioned spikes , which , While I don't think is a good move on it , It's definitely not a needed move for this mon , as it can take advantage of its own spikes for its own sweep , or just not use the slot and let someone else do the spiking job , but with how many easy switches it forces unless people commit tera ridiculously early , It's almost impossible to stop spikes from it , not to mention it CAN beat Tusk & Equilibra in the same set , which are the best spinners in the format

Another easy noticed , I'm aware it was its whole gimmicks , but the stats are actually kind of really good for a mon with this insane a moveset. There's a reason I called it "Balanced Hackmons but Legit" when it first launched and ... It definitely does seem that way , partually with its extreme speed damage output. This move ... Might be the single most opressive move in the entire format. It outprioritizes revenge killing attempts from sucker punch or grassy glide , with tera fairy at +1 , It 2HKOs Most offensive resists and even without tera fairy (which We'll get to later) , It still deals absurd damage to way too many things , either with band for more immediate damage while still getting priority or Just with a defensive tera that gives it free bulk ups on Supposed checks or great lure-ins for better extreme speed spams

Another big issue (an issue for the entire gen , but ... Let's just say it's contreversal to even mention these terms (ban & Tera) together , so I won't) , Tera makes this thing beyond broken! I already mentioned tera fairy and how the damage output of this tera alongside extreme speed is a sin , but Defensive teras are also stupid , Tera Poison is apparently the newest thing on the block that makes its former best counter into a guessing game into it and Tera Ground was always a common option , baiting the heatran and the iron Moth to try and check it (both offensively for moth and defensively for heatran) with tera blast as a good last slot. You might be saying "but idiot , People can just tera fire" ... First off , tera ground helps against opposing tera fires , but more importantly , Fire is only great against Hemogoblin specifically and it's kind of ass against the rest of the format pretty much , making it dependent on you facing up hemogoblin in the first place and Makes a mon forced to tera against it , "What a healthy dynamic tera is" said noone ever

Last thing before the TLDR ... Longevity ... Just why can it live so long while sweeping your entire team at the same time ? It sets up thanks to moonlight giving it more opportunities and Bulk up increasing its physical bulk surprisingly quickly thanks to its decent , often near max EVd HP Stat , set HP Stat also allowing it to tank faster Special attacks and heal up the damage with its other contreversal move , Bitter blade! This is the move that makes me wanna discuss this entire section at all , As Bitter blade allows it to do something basically no other sweeper can , Be consistantly healthy over and over and over , taking another special attack , healing off the damage , rince repeat (Keep in mind , If you invest well enough , you tank Earth power from equilibra , so don't think tera Water would save you on it to OHKO non-Tera Hemogoblin , and it just heals like 45-50% if it KOs a non-tera Equilibra , so it can tank another hit thanks to its special bulk with 180 HP EVs (what I usually run)

TLDR: This thing needs several nerfs at once in multiple areas. I'm not going to cover more (I could be here all day writing this) , Here are the suggestions I mention. Feel free to Mix & Match how you feel like it
- Remove its last moveslot options , at least spikes and maybe even tera blast
- Maybe a slight stat nerf (either to Special Defense , the one stat it can't reliably boost or an all around nerf to damage , bulk & Speed)
- Replace bulk up with Howl or nothing at all so it can't be invincible on the physical side while setting up
- Remove longevity options (Either remove Moonlight so it can't set up on passive mon with defensive tera like poison for veno / Remove bitter blade so it can't tank hits while sweeping akin to aegislash in XY would tank hits to set up and then go for game abusing its low speed)

 

[Samirsin]

Argument against removing Wish and Moonlight:

Scattervein is one of the few NFE CAPs that is, to some extent, viable. If possible, I would like if Moonlight was kept on Hemogoblin, as all of this changes impact Scattervein and Ababo too. Yes, I know many of you do not play with Scattervein, but me and the other three people that play OMs or with it normally in ladder know that Scattervein is really useful as an eviolite mon with Moonlight.
Whether it is with the Intimidate, Seismic Toss, Moonlight set or normal Bulk Up, Extreme Speed, Moonlight it is a key part of its usage, giving it reliable healing. Hemogoblin and healing is extremely good, but Bitter Blade is more consistent across all sets, which is why I propose -Bitter Blade instead of -Moonlight or -Wish.

 

[SHSP]

Argument against removing Wish and Moonlight:

Scattervein is one of the few NFE CAPs that is, to some extent, viable. If possible, I would like if Moonlight was kept on Hemogoblin, as all of this changes impact Scattervein and Ababo too. Yes, I know many of you do not play with Scattervein, but me and the other three people that play OMs or with it normally in ladder know that Scattervein is really useful as an eviolite mon with Moonlight.
Whether it is with the Intimidate, Seismic Toss, Moonlight set or normal Bulk Up, Extreme Speed, Moonlight it is a key part of its usage, giving it reliable healing. Hemogoblin and healing is extremely good, but Bitter Blade is more consistent across all sets, which is why I propose -Bitter Blade instead of -Moonlight or -Wish.

speaking for council for once! We are not factoring in Scattervein or its status in this; this is a Hemogoblin nerf process. If it impacts Scattervein, it impacts Scattervein. We have not and will not consider the NFEs or LCs as collateral in a nerf process built around addressing a CAP itself. Please keep discussion focused on Hemogoblin.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

Remove its last moveslot options , at least spikes and maybe even tera blast

Tera Blast is a universal move so it wouldn't be removed

 

[Turn Up]

Hemogoblin has a very unique identity of having the capability to run numerous strong sets efficiently, but these possibilities not being explored due to the overamplification of it's physical attributes. I believe pixspeed is both Hemogoblin's biggest boon, and is a large part of it's identity presently and I don't want to change that. My proposed changes are as follows;

- Bitter Blade & Moonlight
I believe quz put it better than I possibly could;

My other issue with the mon is how pointless it feels to try to chip it during setup turns. With a pokemon like Bulk Up Tusk you can often play the game of whether you're gonna swap out fearing a SE hit, or attack into a potential Bulk Up, and it 100% has to respect that, because its HP is a very limited resource. With Hemo you can just avoid that limitation; between Bitter Blade letting you heal any chip you took while setting up, and Espeed potentially denying a revenge kill, it just plays differently from comparable sweepers.

Priority sweepers in Generation 9 have evolved from a niche to a standard archetype, and the meta has been forced to evolve around and Hemo is no exception to this. Where it is an exception is in it's longevity. Bitter blade, or a combination of bitter blade and moonlight gives hemo the ability to get off many bulk ups, by healing off the chip where Kingambit or Raging Bolt would often only be able to get off 1 setup move before they have to start attacking, or even allow it to be setup multiple times in a single match. This of course leaves wish which I'm unsure about. I think it would be fine as hemo is not the bulkiest and would struggle to live through two hits before it can get it's healing off, and the necessity of a fire type move for coverage is likely not worth sacrificing protect for, as single attack fire lash/espeed hemo would both be very easy to switch into and counter with a number of meta relevant mons

- Attack Stat
While eliminating Hemo's healing would be a big thorn in Bulk Up Hemo's side, the set would still likely be extremely dominant due to Pixiespeed's potency combined with the very strong fire type coverage. Additionally, while not bulk up, I believe choice band to be the 2nd most potent set, and still be very viable in the meta, which bitter blade's loss does not do nearly as much to impact as it does to bulk up. As mentioned in my opening paragraph, Hemo is a mon with potential to be incredibly diverse, but I think this is highly bottlenecked in it's overloaded physical traits. When you compare it to contemporaries in having both strong physical and special sets, like Dragapult, or Nidoking of past, there is a glaring trade-off in that their weaker stat is usually the one that have access to the stronger set, with special Dragapult having access to a strong ghost STAB without the need for tera, and draco meteor, and special Nidoking having access to very strong coverage over a slightly more powerful ground STAB. Without going into all his options, it's pretty clear Hemo's physical options far eclipse the special ones, even excluding bitter blade, with the exception of maybe overheat due to their additional effects. I like that the potential for special Hemo is there, but I shouldn't consistently be breathing a sigh of relief every time I see a Hemo click a special move. I believe reduing Hemo's attack both gives it a necessary nerf, while still flavourfully keeping it's identity as a mon with diverse options and giving it's special attack options more room to shine.

- Taunt (?)
This is a weird one for me. As it stands, I believe taunt to be the strongest 4th move on bulk up Hemo, but I also believe a big part of this is in part due to the ability to taunt fat mons and then outheal with with bitter blade which it hypothetically no longer has access to. Regardless, Hemo could definitely still function without taunt, but as previously mentioned, Hemo's diversity potential is something that I would love to not be hindered. Also worth mentioning however, I think it's likely a good thing if Hemo dittos aren't largely dictated by a speed tie, which I believe taunt would frequently result in

Sorry if my post is not the most comprehensible, haven't really touched boards a whole lot but still wanted to give it a shot

 

[Steam Buns]

Just a quick post to share my thoughts, as I see it the only relevant move pool cuts for hemogoblin are one of its big 3 options, e-speed, bitter blade or bulk up. I understand the sentiment behind axing moonlight/wish or fire lash, but frankly the utility provided by these options is not comparable to what bitter blade allows hemogoblin to do. Being able to make progress and recover hp in 1 turn and 1 moveslot is what enables hemogoblins other options to be so effective and create such favourable risk/reward. Any other nerfs on top of bitter blade removal would be overkill in my opinion and any movepool cuts that don't include bitter blade, e-speed or bulk up, would be ineffective.

So with that is my mind my only proposed nerf currently would be
- Bitter Blade
as its least integral to hemo's identity compared to e-speed and bulk up but would still be entirely sufficient as a nerf on its own.
I'm also open to the idea of stat nerfs but I haven't seen much discussion around it and it would be considerably harder to get right.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Just wanted to say that if we remove Bitter Blade, than I also think it would be a good idea to consider removing Fire Lash and force Hemo to run Flare Blitz or Temper Flare for its Fire STAB. The main reason I suggest this is that I don't really like how Fire Lash allows Hemo to cheese through some of its current checks (Venomicon is the main one that comes to mind here, but this also holds true for something like Gliscor if we are Tera Fairy), and I really think the only reason it's not being used more right now is that it doesn't really have a whole lot of reason to want to run it alongside Bitter Blade.

Tera Blast is a universal move so it wouldn't be removed

We have precedent for a mon not getting Tera Blast already w/ Terapagos, so if we wanted to go down this route, we absolutely could. To be clear, I don't think a Tera Blast removal would really do much outside killing off Tera Ground sets (Which are already not super common to begin with honestly, since Hemo nowadays usually runs Tera Fairy or Tera Poison), but it's not like we can't remove it to begin with, especially when we have already removed a near-unversal move from a CAP before (Toxic from Equilibra back in SM).

 

[spoo]

Alright y'all, thanks for all the great discussion, hopefully you'll be satisfied with what we've decided on:

Movepool: -Bitter Blade, -Fire Lash
​

Council chats started with us airing out preliminary thoughts on the mon, whether we were leaning towards a larger or smaller-scale nerf, speculating a bit on how the mon would play after removing certain options, and so on, eventually leading to a series of votes. We first voted on which of movepool vs stats would be our primary target, then which specific move we wanted gone most, and finally if we needed anything beyond simply cutting Bitter Blade, leading to the additional removal of Fire Lash. All of these votes were basically unanimous so discussion ran pretty smooth as a result, being made even easier by the fact that this thread's sentiment heavily leaned towards -Bitter Blade routes as well.

Losing Bitter Blade makes damage stick on Hemo much more reliably, now forcing it choose whether it wants to attack or heal in situations where it could previously just do both at the same time. This slows down its gameplay to a point where it's less of a steamroller in endgames against more passive or ill-equipped balances and forces the Hemogoblin user to take certain calcuated risks where there used to be little risk at all. Cutting Fire Lash was mainly seen as insurance so we wouldn't end up with Version 2 of this thread in a couple months, as well as greatly reducing Hemogoblin's set variation by forcing Flare Blitz as its main attack, and as a result, Moonlight as the most common 4th move. This is also why we didn't touch other 4th-move options like Taunt, Spikes, Wish, etc; we predict them to mostly disappear in favor of Moonlight now that Hemogoblin lacks other means of reliable healing.

This will go live in the near(ish) future alongside Revenankh's unnerf and the DLC2 movepool updates. Thanks again for all your posts and helping us confidently reach this conclusion.