Announcement National Dex Open Mic - Surfin Bird

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Sulo

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:sv/lugia:

Following strenuous discussion amongst the council, we've decided to open up discussion on a certain Pokemon that has been touched on in the past: Lugia.

When you take a look at Lugia's overall collection of traits, it's not hard to see why it was banned at the beginning of the tier's inception; it's got monstrous bulk, wincon potential with Calm Mind that can be further exacerbated by Terastallization, a typing that grants it good matchups into tier behemoths like Zamazenta, and two abilities that allow it to warp potential counterplay through either PP stalling or making it even more difficult to break. Its surprisingly good Speed stat for a wall also allows it to potentially beat Pokemon that would otherwise get the jump on it easily, such as Heatran and Kartana, while also Speed tying with foes like Ogerpon-W. The aforementioned Calm Mind sets are the easiest way to take advantage of Lugia's potentially insane status as a wall and circumvent its presumably passive nature; with the various options it has at its disposal--including coverage moves like Earth Power for Steel-types and foes like Galarian Slowking and its ability selection--it can quickly become extremely difficult to consistently check for commonly used team structures and was seen as a centralizing threat as such. Outside of general walling and sweeping capabilities, it can also provide useful utility in the form of Defog, which is useful on fatter teams struggling to fit hazard removal otherwise.

In spite of all this, Lugia is far from without flaws. It has extremely middling offensive stats and a typing that is, while solid, still extremely unfavorable against some of the tier's most common offensive threats, including the likes of Mega Tyranitar, Darkrai, Raging Bolt, and Weavile. This means it cannot effectively use its bulk to trade in most matchups, rendering it a massive momentum sink in the process. Said passivity also renders it nearly useless in the face of more offensive structures in that it cannot use its bulk and potential hit-taking with Multiscale; doing so may relegate it to becoming setup fodder for opposing threats and ending in a potential loss for the Lugia user. The sweeping prowess of Calm Mind sets is also something that is, on paper, incredibly overstated; its unfavorable typing means it likely needs to expend Terastallization in most matchups, which can often become a net negative due to its aforementioned middling offensive stats; if it doesn't Terastallize, it struggles to find setup opportunities otherwise and can often risk burning through its recovery in the face of foes like Ferrothorn and Gliscor.

All in all, this is of course an open mic discussion; we want to hear the community's thoughts on the matter given how split council was about straight up taking action in the first place.

Remember that this is not a suspect test; we just want to gauge thoughts on what could be done. Remember to be respectful in posting and arguing with other users as well.​
 

hidin

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Lugia reminds me of seth. A big, fat thing that does little in the builder and in hypotheticals and is quite disappointing in practice. Dragging down Lugia like this is unacceptable and is completely and objectively bad. I think because of this, we should unban Lugia so we can clear its name and ban seth afterwards to truly have a good metagame. Good day
 
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Ineros

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Lugia reminds me of seth. A big, fat thing that does little in the builder and in hypotheticals and is quite disappointing in practice. Dragging down Lugia like this is unacceptable and completely and objectively bad. I think because of this, we should unban Lugia so we can clear its name and ban seth afterwards to truly have a good metagame. Good day
I honestly agree. Seth is more of an unhealthy presence and should be looked at in the next stage of improving the tier. In the meantime, Lugia should most definitely be Suspected for all the issues said above in addition to being a good check to things like mban and weavile with Tera ice and normal respectively, giving a reason as to what it brings to the tier.
 
Lugia reminds me of seth. A big, fat thing that does little in the builder and in hypotheticals and is quite disappointing in practice. Dragging down Lugia like this is unacceptable and completely and objectively bad. I think because of this, we should unban Lugia so we can clear its name and ban seth afterwards to truly have a good metagame. Good day
me personally seth i was not having bro compare me to a lugia. Ask him bout typhlosion usage
 
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