Resource National Dex Doubles - Simple Questions, Simple Answers

[Smudge]

This thread is for simple questions that need relatively simple answers. Quote the question you are answering to help keep things organized. If you were considering making a thread to ask "Why was [X] banned?" or "Why is Sun so strong?" You should ask those questions here instead. For simple questions related to Smogon ask here.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Why is glastrier unranked? i've used it and it seems pretty good, a great bulk, tera authorized, decent coverage, if this thing isn't a big tool for tr teams, i dont understand. Not a single pokemon existing can resist both close combat, icicle crash and High horse-power, when you can run protect as the last moveslot. It does great damage, couples to clear amulet, It Will take down incineroar lando AND salamence to help a potential incoming ursaluna! Plus, why is ursaluna t3? while It has sone support such as teleport porygon2, It can come and clean All opponents on the way. Tera normal makes It a death distributor and headlong rush-throat chop goves It All the coverage needed. Protect is also a nice option, when it needs to end a turn to start the butcher Job. Meowstic is also unranked, but a fast fake out plus prankster imprison and access to tr and expanfing force to force opposing trick room ar psyspam to play With handicap. Usable spatk and consistent set can make it a nice mon imo.

 

[vesp]

Hard room is not in a great spot rn imo, and glastrier is relatively Tera reliant, along with lacking the spread move spam tr is so good at. Meowstic is fast fake out as a role isn't really valuable since the only way that matters is vs other fake outs. Expanding force is learnt by every psychic ever, meostic isn't special in that regard. Meowstic has valuable traits, but if you need prankster screens, Grimm is right there.

 

[Smudge]

Why is glastrier unranked? i've used it and it seems pretty good, a great bulk, tera authorized, decent coverage, if this thing isn't a big tool for tr teams, i dont understand. Not a single pokemon existing can resist both close combat, icicle crash and High horse-power, when you can run protect as the last moveslot. It does great damage, couples to clear amulet, It Will take down incineroar lando AND salamence to help a potential incoming ursaluna! Plus, why is ursaluna t3? while It has sone support such as teleport porygon2, It can come and clean All opponents on the way. Tera normal makes It a death distributor and headlong rush-throat chop goves It All the coverage needed. Protect is also a nice option, when it needs to end a turn to start the butcher Job. Meowstic is also unranked, but a fast fake out plus prankster imprison and access to tr and expanfing force to force opposing trick room ar psyspam to play With handicap. Usable spatk and consistent set can make it a nice mon imo.

Glastrier isn't ranked because Full Trick Room isn't really a strong archetype in this meta, and since it's a viability ranking, it reflects that. It's a bit of a Tera hog as well, which doesn't help its case.

As for Urasluna, it suffers from some of the same issues as above regarding trick room as an archetype but doesn't have the same awful ice typing by default and works better on semiroom teams. Tier 3 is still a good placement, and I agree that it's pretty decent. It's kept in check by Rillaboom however, which is a Tier 1 Pokemon, since it has priority Grassy Glide under Trick Room or simply a faster Wood Hammer outside of it.

Meowstic.. is not viable. It has no stats, a bad typing in a meta where Flutter Mane and Chi Yu excel, the faster fake out isn't particularly necessary as you can speed creep your own Rillaboom which provides much more value in a team slot. If you want to imprison trick room, try Farigiraf or Indeedee.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Meowstic is fast fake out as a role isn't really valuable since the only way that matters is vs other fake outs. Expanding force is learnt by every psychic ever, meostic isn't special in that regard. Meowstic has valuable traits, but if you need prankster screens, Grimm is right there.

Well Not so much pokémon can imprison trick room With that ease, and win the fake out duel is very important If you want to set trick room. Plus, its imprison also afects fake out, and it can Simply change a game to block the opponents from trick room, imprison and fake out. The last slot is free, but expanding force seems also good to disable imo

 

[Arcticblast]

Well Not so much pokémon can imprison trick room With that ease, and win the fake out duel is very important If you want to set trick room. Plus, its imprison also afects fake out, and it can Simply change a game to block the opponents from trick room, imprison and fake out. The last slot is free, but expanding force seems also good to disable imo

Here is the list of Pokemon, including all fully evolved non-Ubers and Dusclops, that can learn both Imprison and Trick Room:

Alakazam, Articuno-G, Azelf, Banette, Beheeyem, Bronzong, Calyrex, Celebi, Chandelure, Claydol, Cofagrigus, Delphox, Drifblim, Dusclops, Dusknoir, Espeon, Farigiraf, Flutter Mane, Gallade, Gardevoir, Gengar, Gothitelle, Gourgeist, Grumpig, Hatterene, Hypno, Indeedee (both), Iron Valiant, Jellicent, Jirachi, Klefki, Medicham, Meowstic (both), Mesprit, Mew, Mismagius, Musharna, Necrozma, Oranguru, Orbeetle, Polteageist, Rabsca, Rapidash-G, Reuniclus, Runerigus, Scream Tail, Sigilyph, Slowbro, Slowbro-G, Slowking, Slowking-G, Smeargle, Spiritomb, Swoobat, Trevenant, Uxie, Wyrdeer, Xatu

Multiple of these are immune to Fake Out, either through typing or abilities, and the majority of these are also significantly bulkier. Most of these should also learn Expanding Force if you really want something else to get rid of (and Indeedee can use it itself). If you want to use Imprison, I think you can do much better than Meowstic.

I can't really speak for this format since I don't have much interest in playing it myself, but over in DOU, Imprison is generally pretty rare. It's seen a slight uptick with Farigiraf, because Farigiraf also stops priority moves with its ability, but otherwise it's generally not worth the move slot. If you feel you need Imprison to answer Trick Room, usually that means your team is too weak to Trick Room already, and you should change a slot or two around to better prepare for it.

 

[vesp]

Well Not so much pokémon can imprison trick room With that ease, and win the fake out duel is very important If you want to set trick room. Plus, its imprison also afects fake out, and it can Simply change a game to block the opponents from trick room, imprison and fake out. The last slot is free, but expanding force seems also good to disable imo

As the big guy above me said, imprison room isn't special. You're worried about fake out for room??? Just run indeedee. Since terrain blocks fake, indeedee has imprison tr and also stab e force lol. Meowstic is not a good mon, it's never been good in nd doubles and won't. It has no redeeming traits, Grimm or indeedee or jirachi will eternally outclass it. There is no reason whatsoever to run meowstic on a team ever.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

I would've continued to argue, but since that appear as help, id rather say thank you

also, i want to know, Why isn't hard trick room strong?

 

[Glimmer]

also, i want to know, Why isn't hard trick room strong?

The setters in general are weak to common types (Cresselia is weak to Dark and Ghost, Porygon2 is weak to Fighting) and there are very few good Trick Room attackers who are only good in hard Trick Room, being limited to Ursaluna and Mega Camerupt. And even Ursaluna can function in Semi Trick Room. The abusers not needing hard Trick Room and preferring Semi Trick Room, the meta being a lot more hostile to getting multiple Trick Room off, make Hard Trick Room usually not a preferred style.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

So jirachi Is also broken? I mean it was supposed to have a suspect so,

 

[SquidSpring]

So jirachi Is also broken? I mean it was supposed to have a suspect so,

late reply but rachi isn’t anywhere close to broken imo, personally i have a hard time fitting it on teams but he’s definitely a high tier 2 mon and you could even argue for him being tier 1 tbh
by far the best redirection in the tier

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

I want to ask, Why is There no sleep clause? Do every team need a grass type or saffety goggles, or An amoongus counter? Do every team need to be prepared to deal witg both venusaur, amoongus and smeargle? I mean, Cant We have some freedom when We chose our mons? any trick room team must run a poke so slow it outslows amoongus, Who tanks also p well outside of tr. Not speaking of low level elle mons that are meant to annoy us. sleep clause would let the games to be less toxic. Every time An amoongus comes on field, it'll get its usage. Unlike smeargle, it tanks and recovers. It is a Too hard counter to any trick room team.

 

[Charlotte]

Why is There no sleep clause?

It's worth looking at dou from xy onwards. There hasn't been sleep cause since then, with the move away from bw sleep mechanics and the introduction of 'powder' immunities. SM of course further introduced very strong options with misty surge and electric surge, and while they're not as strong in this meta as they where back then, they're both still viable options.
And these are just the blunt on-paper prevention tools, doubles broadly allows you a lot of room to out maneuver and out play the opponent even with only the basic options on your team, positioning for the offensive pressure to prevent Amoonguss having the free turns to be disruptive. If you additionally use strong utility tools like the two terrain surges or taunt, lunar blessing (even safeguard has some validity) you should be able to come up with a comfortable plan on the fly.
it's perfectly fine for Amoonguss to be a good pokemon, it can be a tempo drain for the user if played poorly, or played against well. TR focused teams obviously need to take it seriously but that in itself isn't a problem, it's just having sure you have a matchup for a meta staple just like the huge list of other ones. TR has tonnes of options for this that are all decent and I don't think the archetype is particularly struggling.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Why tf tera porygon? its only weakness is fighting, essentially cC and sacred sword. Physically defensive p2 tanks cC and sacred sword then set trick room. Can teleport and let switch in a fully prepared ursaluna. Plus, most tr setters are psychic type, and to hit both you would need: a marshadow, weak psychic/ a chien-pao, not Even a danger for physically defensive p2. Trace is pretty good when you want to face incineroar. eviolite mAX def takes maximum 40 ish from a sacred sword chien pao

 

[Glimmer]

Why tf tera porygon?

Fighting is relatively common and against some attacks porygon2 cannot outbulk, and Trace is not the preferred ability either porygon2 usually wants Download with SpAtk invest to not be a sitting duck. Tera Fairy gives it far fewer weaknesses and Tera Ghost becomes immune to Fake Out and Fighting-type and gets STAB Shadow Ball.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Well since tera ghost is not The best choice (chien pao, fm, chiyu) and i dont think anyone expects a porygon sweep, i still dont support tera porygon wDYM by shadow ball p2? Tri attack is far better, dont need tera, Can sTATUS The opponent, i dont see any reason to have shadow ball over tri atk

 

[YoBuddy]

Tri Attack is a pretty uncommon option on Porygon2 as it can't hit anything super effectively. Porygon2 also gets Thunderbolt + Ice Beam, which gives it excellent coverage. Tera doesn't need to be used on a sweeper, it is often just as impactful to Tera a defensive/support pokemon to ensure they get off their support moves before being KO'd or just to extend their longevity. While Porygon2 has excellent bulk it isn't unkillable and the aforementioned Fighting moves and Fake Out both disrupt Porygon2's support capabilities.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Fighting moves and Fake Out both disrupt Porygon2's support capabilities.

But If you spend a turn using fake out, p2 Will tank The next turn and get to set trick room, Even recover and you Will have to deal With The Other team members. Its only danger is mAX attack cb urshifu that Can deal up to 60% damages With close combat and sword of ruin. But then If you fake out, since both urshifu and chien pao dont get fake out, urshifu or chien pao Cant do all these damages. The best scenario would be you fake out, urshifu cc, then you switch in chien pao and then urshifu kills with cc. But again, i may have set psychic terrain, i may kill urshifu If i have two turns, i Can use follow me on The Other team member on field. In a trick room team, The set would be tr/recover/tport/attacking move. Tri attack is better since ut Can statuse mons as often as dark pulse or waterfall flinches. both burn and para are consistent, and freeze have 1/2 chances to reverse a game. So still i'd prefer a good tri attack. tbolt and ife beam are interesting, But you dont forcibly need 'em, and having at least one statuser is a nice thing in most teams. Still, here i'm speaking of p2 in a tr team, i have no experience of it outside tr

 

[adpg.2007]

I just want to ask. Who are the best posible Partners for Marshadow? I'm using It in a pretty straight forward offensive Team, is giving results, of course, but I don't know If It could be better used and supported than just throw strong attacks alongside your partners.

 

[Glimmer]

I just want to ask. Who are the best posible Partners for Marshadow? I'm using It in a pretty straight forward offensive Team, is giving results, of course, but I don't know If It could be better used and supported than just throw strong attacks alongside your partners.

Chien-Pao is an excellent partner due to the defense lowering of opponents, gives Marshadow the slight nudge in power it needs.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 166-198 (44.3 - 52.9%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO which proves The very bulk of this tr setter
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 204-240 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO which means a turn to set tr, one to recover, then your partner can finish that -2 defense urshifu.

76+ Atk rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Grassy Terrain: 123-145 (32.8 - 38.7%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery and this guy here is not a danger for The duck.


40 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 144-169 (38.5 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO What am i seeing there? A turn to set tr, another to tport in a mon! Well, no excuses. Sadly, type:null :type:-null: dont have access to tr, othrewise,


Well with these cals i wanted to prove you that porygon2 was a worthy pokemon not reliant on tera, anf why it's one of The besst tr setters in three tier

Next i wanted to defend glastrier .
This pokemon have always been flawed: ice type, and fatal slowness. Now, national dex doubles is up and we can now enjoy gen9 items, mechanics and gen8 movepool! To defend my position about glastrier, I will obviously do calcs and argue about it. This pokemon has the great bulk of 100/130/110, higher than mew, jirachi or ursaluna . Sadly, rillaboom and urshifu can overwhelm it. glastrier mustn't have Tera to deal with wood hammer, while it must've tera to win against urshifu, except under very specific circumstances. Now, now, let's see. CALCS!
Set:
@ Clear Amulet
Ability: Chilling Neigh
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Icicle Crash
- Close Combat
- High Horsepower
- Protect
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 316-373 (78.4 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
glastrier can tank megaman a.k.a. Ursaluna's facade! Speak of a god-tier Bulk.


Urshifu-Rapid-Strike's Moves (select one to show detailed results)
Surging Strikes 18.6 - 22.3%
Close Combat 38.9 - 46.1%
U-turn 15.3 - 18.1%
Aqua Jet 6.4 - 7.6%

Glastrier's Moves (select one to show detailed results)
Icicle Crash 24.3 - 28.7%
High Horsepower 36.3 - 42.8%
Protect 0 - 0%
Close Combat 45.7 - 53.9%​

So that are the calcs for terawater glastrier against urshifu, and you win the duel of close combat if you're under trick room.

Flutter Mane's Moves (select one to show detailed results)
Moonblast 31.2 - 36.7%
Dazzling Gleam 19.6 - 23.3%
Shadow Ball 26.3 - 31.2%
Protect 0 - 0%

Glastrier's Moves (select one to show detailed results)
Icicle Crash 67.4 - 79.5%
High Horsepower 50.4 - 59.4%
Protect 0 - 0%
Close Combat 0 - 0%​

That is for booster energy flutter mane. Afaik, even out of tr, you win.

Rillaboom's Moves (select one to show detailed results)
Fake Out 8.4 - 9.9%
Wood Hammer 94.2 - 111.6% (32.9 - 32.9% recoil damage)
U-turn 14.1 - 16.8%
Grassy Glide 43.6 - 52.1%

Glastrier's Moves (select one to show detailed results)
Icicle Crash 84.6 - 100%
High Horsepower 15.5 - 18.5%
Protect 0 - 0%
Close Combat 39.6 - 46.7%​

That's a terawater glastrier. And it still can win the duel if icicle crash ohkoes Or you haven't Tera. And then you win the duel.

 

[Glimmer]

76+ Atk rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Grassy Terrain: 123-145 (32.8 - 38.7%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery and this guy here is not a danger for The duck.


40 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 144-169 (38.5 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO What am i seeing there? A turn to set tr, another to tport in a mon! Well, no excuses. Sadly, type:null :type:-null: dont have access to tr, othrewise

These are the absolute bare minimum attack investment these two get. Flutter Mane almost always run near max SpA in this tier and Rillaboom only ever gives up a bit of Attack for bulk.
252+ Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 40 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 302-356 (80.9 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I do not know where you got those calcs from for Urshifu, P2 just dies.
Not to mention Kingambit's Knock Off, Incineroar's Knock Off, Mega Salamence Sword of Ruin boosted Double Edge.
And also Porygon2 is one of the only passive TR setters that actively doesn't consistently support the rest of its team. The other passive TR setters always find some value in supporting the rest of the team stellarly, Indeedee-F and Jirachi have Follow Me on top of Trick Room, Cresselia can heal allies and their statuses, Gothitelle has Fake Out and Shadow Tag. And other TR setters are much more offensively capable. By clicking Recover twice in Trick Room you have wasted half your Trick Room trying to deal with a threat Porygon2 gets 2HKOed by. And that's an absolute waste of TR for how hard it is to come by.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

other passive TR setters always find some value in supporting the rest of the team stellarly, Indeedee-F and Jirachi have Follow Me on top of Trick Room, Cresselia can heal allies and their statuses, Gothitelle has Fake Out and Shadow Tag. And other TR setters are much more offensively capable. By clicking Recover twice in Trick Room you have wasted half your Trick Room trying to deal with a threat Porygon2 gets 2HKOed by. And that's an absolute waste of TR for how hard it is to come by.

Wait what? You're genuinely telling me that every single trick room setter shall die to sun teams. If you put random flaws as requirements, you bet it isn't viable. adding that kingambit has all its chances to knock of when it gets outslowed in tr and oneshoted by CC

 

[sir jelloton]

Wait what? You're genuinely telling me that every single trick room setter shall die to sun teams. If you put random flaws as requirements, you bet it isn't viable. adding that kingambit has all its chances to knock of when it gets outslowed in tr and oneshoted by CC

It seems you're having a bit of trouble understanding exactly what it is we're talking about here. I suggest you to try and test your p2/glastrier teams vs some more experienced and strong players so you'll get a better feel for the strengths and weaknesses of the pokemon and will better understand what we're trying to express to you here

 

[MiniorHasFallen]

I tried looking up the Pokemon pool for NatDex Doubles, but the Pokemon not in S/V right now are designated as illegal regardless of actual tier. What sets this metagame apart from S/V Doubles?