Monotype Viability Rankings

[scpinion]

Smarter Scpinion (Slowking) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 228 SpA / 32 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Ice Beam

Nice. :D That capital "s" pains me though.

So this ins't a completely useless post, I'll point out Slowking had a niche on some of the earlier stall water builds as a good wincon. Sabella had a nice team that featured it before Thimo's(?) infamous build. It isn't used as much anymore, but I'd assume it could still work.

 

[Wanka]

Well yeah I didn't say that hawlucha could just sweep those teams inherently, but I'm still going to stand by the fact that it at least performs well against them. You gotta think what luchas role actually is on a fighting team. And again, im not saying it makes it an above average mon, but it can be mildy effective at times. When you think about it, all lucha really does is work with terrackion and hera to wear eachothers checks down to open a game winning clean between the three. Now, thats easier said than done but you cant solely judge hawluchas viability on being able to sweeo entire teams because thats not what its meant to do nor going to do. All lucha needs to do is soften up offensive builds by getting maybe a kill or two to compliment fightings other fast cleaners or vise versa.

I guess I'll adress some of the matchups that you talked about now because combined with the misconception of what hawlucha shoulda be priding itself on, I think you've been a bit harsh in judging those matchups.

SS Water: the main mon you are going to be trying to boost on is probably gyardos in an early game scenario or keldeo in a late game scenario. It's pretty easy to take advantage of someone trying to DD with their gyarados. You will probably end up killing off the gyara and be in range of AJ from azu but that is the easiest brelloom on the planet and you've essentially just picked up 2 kills right off the bat. Now in a late game scenario where politoad has taken a hit, maybe kingdra has taken a mach punch or has inherited some chip damage, hawlucha can take advantage of something like keldeo to be able to pick up some kills late game. SS water as a whole can be tricky because kingdra ohkos everything and im not saying hawlucha will guaruntee you a win against that matchup because it wont, but it can be useful when played well.

Dragon: Again, this is not a matchup where you should be expecting hawlucha to just sweep entirely, maybe not even get a kill, but its going to soften up things that will check your other mons. A sitrus set will really only be able to boost on something like a dragonite and there are a few outcomes after potentially setting up on d nite. You'll either take it out and have very little hp left and then you'll get one last hit in against chomper or latias, OR d nite will switch out after 1 espeed and fodder off garchomp to put it in range of espeed again. And on the off chance you try and take it on with latias, then that will get softened up as well. The idea here isnt how many kills hawlucha is getting but which wall it either takes out or severely weakens. If chomp goes down, medicham/gallade + your physical scarfers can go to town and if mega latias takes a big hit, keldeo becomes very annoying. You have to play very aggresively to keep rocks up which makes that matchup already hard, but again, lucha isn't completely useless.

HO steel: yeah it gets bodied here

Fighting: I think you overexaggerated here when you said fighting has to really mess up to let it win. Its pretty easy to sweep fighting with a well played lucha because it takes advantage of multiple mons on a fighting team. Lucario isn't even close to being relevant enough to give me a priority excuse which leaves brelloom being ur main form of priority. Bulky coba can take a hit and t wave it but that can be really obvious and you'll just get subbed on. It doesn't gauruntee you a win, but its foolish to think it doesn't give you an advantage at preview.

Bug: It may seem like a busted matchup with pinsir but it actually isn't at all. Lucha takes advantage of heracross so hard and it can put bug teams in a really shitty situation. Not in a way that you are going to get swept, but inf the sense that ur going to have to sack something pretty important whether it be hera itself (if you do this its essentially getting two kills because you'll just get subbed on) or scizor/ a spinner who are really important because rocks will then be an issue or you'll lose an important mon in scizor. Sadly enough, a lot of people leave hera in on a double down which just loses then the game a lot of the time and even if they don't it really helps out with an already shit matchup and isn't useless by any means.

Ground: The main idea against ground is to just smack hippo a shit ton so its softened up terrack snd heracross. Taking advantage of gastrodons passiveness can be really good to do and im not to sure where ur going with the lando t argument, any set its running except the rare choice band, is getting set up on. Stone edge just activates ur sitrus and you'll be at +3 since you've already sd'd on the switch im assuming. I'd have rather u said somethinf like mamo because lando t isn't and answer by any means and mamo is super pressured to ice shard so thats the easiest keldeo of your life and ur back to applying immediate pressure to a ground team. Softening up hippo is really nice as its the only thing that gives ground any chance of winning that matchup besides rp lando. So again, not useless by any means.

Fire: Rocks are super easy to sustain against fire and torkoal has to check half of s fighting team so its extremely easy to wear down so its kind of petty to say that torkoal is a clean stop to it because it takes no skill at all to wear it down. And with rocks being so easily sustainable all u need to do is just hit victini once and it cant do anything anymore. With victini gone it just a matter of clicking ur stabs to clean up at that point which is another case of lucha softening things up to open up game winning sweeps.

Dark: Ill talk about balance and offense here i guess because its relevant in both. You talked about how sable just willo's it but if im a fighting user, I'm happy as fuck that somebody is going to use sable as a way to check my hawlucha. You can literally just repeatedly SD on it as its stabs do nothing to you. You can sub to get your sitrus easier and maxed out acros are going to be doing in the 60s so you cant even recover them off. Offensive dark teams dont carry mandibuzz either so ur foddering something if u try to switch out. Even if u don't kill sab either, its going to be so low it will be useless and it would be easy as just spamming ur scarfers from that point on. From a balance perspective, Mandibuzz is probably the go to switch in for lucha. In that matchup mandi is the lone answer for brelloom and heracross and its as simple as hitting it with a +2 hjk and brelloon and hera just fucking win after that. In both cases hawlucha probably wont even get a kill, but it essentially wins those matchups by opening up sweeps.

Ice: rip ice shard.


Tl;dr, I think we need to stop judging lucha based on its ability to sweep entire teams. Thats not what its good at. Its good at giving support to teammates by opening up sweeps for fightinf teams in certain matchups. That on its own does not compare to any A rank mon but it definitly provides enough support for a fighting team to plant it and B and it definitly isnt useless in the majority of matchups. No way its on the same level as scrafty or chesnaught either. Never used mega hera so idk about that one.

Soz for shit grammar, I suck at mobile. Ill get some replays when I find time as well.

 

[average fella]

ice shard ain't really the reason hawl blows vs ice, it's somewhat decent as one of a million mons that lugg checks, but the price is lugg's health which makes way for a terrak clean. it's not at all special in this regard tho, basically every mon on fighting can do that.

the real reason (s) hawl blows vs ice is its AWFUL matchup against roar lugg. I jump for joy when they whip out hawl, it's basically the only true spin target that can't just lay rox again. the m.o. is spin when they SD behind the sub they laid on the switch, and roar. bam you did the impossible and actually removed hazards against fighting as ice. i'm proud of you, all it took was for your opp to bring a shitmon.

even if they dont get greedy and try to sd again seeing as their sub is still up (never personally happened to me because everyone and their dog expects eq lugg) they dont get a guaranteed kill anyway zzzzzz
+2 244 Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 306-362 (77.8 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

another big problem is that cloy powers right through substitute right to your poor little bird. suddenly youre in a situation where you are forced to send one of your prio users out, stomach a +2 ice shard, and be one setup sweeper down with a weakened loom/cham/nape/whatever fighting users use these days

the only real ice shard users that people use that muscle its way to killing hawlucha is lo weavile and the somewhat uncommon lo mamoswine, and weav requires sr to be laid to kill if it's sitrused, or for it to be damaged by a turn of hail. difficult task to put either of them in without sacing something, killing a sac to bring in mamo or weav is basically the closest thing hawl can do to "sweeping" ice.

also have no idea how you sweep fire when entei can wait in the wings to espeed you and do 56% at least with the band set and at least 48.6% with the lo set, with bulkanine walling you and doing at least 26% with espeed and at least 60% with fb (also bear in mind not even +2 hjk kills bulkanine) and fletchinder being a more common pick who shits on hawl and fighting in general but thats just me

 

[Eien]

Well yeah I didn't say that hawlucha could just sweep those teams inherently, but I'm still going to stand by the fact that it at least performs well against them. You gotta think what luchas role actually is on a fighting team. And again, im not saying it makes it an above average mon, but it can be mildy effective at times. When you think about it, all lucha really does is work with terrackion and hera to wear eachothers checks down to open a game winning clean between the three. Now, thats easier said than done but you cant solely judge hawluchas viability on being able to sweeo entire teams because thats not what its meant to do nor going to do. All lucha needs to do is soften up offensive builds by getting maybe a kill or two to compliment fightings other fast cleaners or vise versa.

I guess I'll adress some of the matchups that you talked about now because combined with the misconception of what hawlucha shoulda be priding itself on, I think you've been a bit harsh in judging those matchups.

SS Water: the main mon you are going to be trying to boost on is probably gyardos in an early game scenario or keldeo in a late game scenario. It's pretty easy to take advantage of someone trying to DD with their gyarados. You will probably end up killing off the gyara and be in range of AJ from azu but that is the easiest brelloom on the planet and you've essentially just picked up 2 kills right off the bat. Now in a late game scenario where politoad has taken a hit, maybe kingdra has taken a mach punch or has inherited some chip damage, hawlucha can take advantage of something like keldeo to be able to pick up some kills late game. SS water as a whole can be tricky because kingdra ohkos everything and im not saying hawlucha will guaruntee you a win against that matchup because it wont, but it can be useful when played well.

Dragon: Again, this is not a matchup where you should be expecting hawlucha to just sweep entirely, maybe not even get a kill, but its going to soften up things that will check your other mons. A sitrus set will really only be able to boost on something like a dragonite and there are a few outcomes after potentially setting up on d nite. You'll either take it out and have very little hp left and then you'll get one last hit in against chomper or latias, OR d nite will switch out after 1 espeed and fodder off garchomp to put it in range of espeed again. And on the off chance you try and take it on with latias, then that will get softened up as well. The idea here isnt how many kills hawlucha is getting but which wall it either takes out or severely weakens. If chomp goes down, medicham/gallade + your physical scarfers can go to town and if mega latias takes a big hit, keldeo becomes very annoying. You have to play very aggresively to keep rocks up which makes that matchup already hard, but again, lucha isn't completely useless.

HO steel: yeah it gets bodied here

Fighting: I think you overexaggerated here when you said fighting has to really mess up to let it win. Its pretty easy to sweep fighting with a well played lucha because it takes advantage of multiple mons on a fighting team. Lucario isn't even close to being relevant enough to give me a priority excuse which leaves brelloom being ur main form of priority. Bulky coba can take a hit and t wave it but that can be really obvious and you'll just get subbed on. It doesn't gauruntee you a win, but its foolish to think it doesn't give you an advantage at preview.

Bug: It may seem like a busted matchup with pinsir but it actually isn't at all. Lucha takes advantage of heracross so hard and it can put bug teams in a really shitty situation. Not in a way that you are going to get swept, but inf the sense that ur going to have to sack something pretty important whether it be hera itself (if you do this its essentially getting two kills because you'll just get subbed on) or scizor/ a spinner who are really important because rocks will then be an issue or you'll lose an important mon in scizor. Sadly enough, a lot of people leave hera in on a double down which just loses then the game a lot of the time and even if they don't it really helps out with an already shit matchup and isn't useless by any means.
Ground: The main idea against ground is to just smack hippo a shit ton so its softened up terrack snd heracross. Taking advantage of gastrodons passiveness can be really good to do and im not to sure where ur going with the lando t argument, any set its running except the rare choice band, is getting set up on. Stone edge just activates ur sitrus and you'll be at +3 since you've already sd'd on the switch im assuming. I'd have rather u said somethinf like mamo because lando t isn't and answer by any means and mamo is super pressured to ice shard so thats the easiest keldeo of your life and ur back to applying immediate pressure to a ground team. Softening up hippo is really nice as its the only thing that gives ground any chance of winning that matchup besides rp lando. So again, not useless by any means.

Fire: Rocks are super easy to sustain against fire and torkoal has to check half of s fighting team so its extremely easy to wear down so its kind of petty to say that torkoal is a clean stop to it because it takes no skill at all to wear it down. And with rocks being so easily sustainable all u need to do is just hit victini once and it can anything anymore. With victini gone it just a matter of clicking ur stabs to clean up at that point which is another case of victini softening things up to open up game winning sweeps.

Dark: Ill talk about balance and offense here i guess because its relevant in both. You talked about how sable just willo's it but if im a fighting user, I'm happy as fuck that somebody is going to use sable as a way to check my hawlucha. You can literally just repeatedly SD on it as its stabs do nothing to you. You can sub to get your sitrus easier and maxed out acros are going to be doing in the 60s so you cant even recover them off. Offensive dark teams dont carry mandibuzz either so ur foddering something if u try to switch out. Even if u don't kill sab either, its going to be so low it will be useless and it would be easy as just spamming ur scarfers from that point on. From a balance perspective, Mandibuzz is probably the go to switch in for lucha. In that matchup mandi is the lone answer for brelloom and heracross and its as simple as hitting it with a +2 hjk and brelloon and hera just fucking win after that. In both cases hawlucha probably wont even get a kill, but it essentially wins those matchups by opening up sweeps.

Ice: rip ice shard.


Tl;dr, I think we need to stop judging lucha based on its ability to sweep entire teams. Thats not what its good at. Its good at giving support to teammates by opening up sweeps for fightinf teams in certain matchups. That on its own does not compare to any A rank mon but it definitly provides enough support for a fighting team to plant it and B and it definitly isnt useless in the majority of matchups. No way its on the same level as scrafty or chesnaught either. Never used mega hera so idk about that one.

Soz for shit grammar, I suck at mobile.

Thanks for your reply. I'll try to keep this short because my other two posts are, on reflection, far longer than reasonable.

If Hawlucha is not meant to be a sweeper, then isn't it even worse than I anticipated? Does it break walls with base 92 Attack? It seems to be another Scarf Heracross/Scarf Terrakion, which is a fast (but FAR weaker) cleaner that is walled by everything Fighting gets walled by already. If it comes to wallbreaking, I'd even rather use something as crazy as Pangoro (Infernape is a higher rank, so I won't mention its wallbreaking set). Pangoro stops the auto-loss to AA Jellicent, has Gunk Shot to take out Clefable, Scrappy to break Dark, threatens the Steel core, breaks stall Water, ignores Froslass, etc. Sure Pangoro sucks and is completely useless out of these roles, but isn't that the same for Hawlucha? Outside of its VERY few uses, which are just to weaken, not even remove, walls, Hawlucha is completely useless. Pangoro is C rank, I'd argue Hawlucha is as good or as bad as Pangoro.

My point is essentially: "Why would I use Hawlucha when I can use literally any other Fighting Pokemon?" What Fighting Pokemon cannot weaken Hippo or weaken Garchomp/Latis? Notably Hawlucha cannot beat them, so that's not a requirement for its replacement.

Just a quick few notes btw, I don't wanna make this too long:

Doesn't Gyarados beat Hawlucha 1v1 100% of the time?
Both spinners handle Hawlucha, as does Scizor. (Volt Switch->Pinsir, Rock Blast, Bullet Punch)
Mega Medicham can 2HKO Hawlucha with Fake Out + Bullet Punch. Worst case, Cobalion (don't Thunder Wave when you can just Iron Head!) or Breloom goes down to do the little bit of damage needed to allow Mega Medicham to clean.
How does Hawlucha weaken Hippowdon when it can Slack Off/Roar, especially since it freely Slacks Off on Heracross/Terrakion later?
Dragonite has to lock into Earthquake to allow Hawlucha to set up. Extreme Speed beats it every time.

Scrafty at least has the niche of breaking Mega Sableye/Ghost core/stall Water. It does equal damage to Hawlucha by the way with HJK if using the DD set.
To be fair, Chesnaught is really bad I'd agree.

 

[Wanka]

No gyarados doesn't beat it 100% of the time. Id have to get a replay of that because its complicated to explain but it only beats you of u play carelessly.

Armaldo doesnt handle lucha at all and getting a +2 hjk off on forry is really nice to do so terrackion can do its thing. Scizor can handle it yea but ur so pressed to BP and that just gives keldeo a free hardswitch to get a kill.

Fake out and bp actually dont 2hko lucha at all and not everyone uses mega cham so its hard to just use that as a lone excuse. Coba is also kind of hard to use because iron head does like 35 iirc and clicking t wave is extremely risky.

Hippo cant slack off +2 hjks at all and its pressured to roar because ur likely to be switching it in rather than straight up 1v1ing it. It being pressed to roar and take significant damage is what leads to late game sweeps from the rest of ur team.

Ill admit my brain died on the d nite argument with espeed. Im not sure what I was thinking. I should have said lucha can potentially take advantage of confusion or hydreigon if ur opp chokes. Those are the really only scenarios and then the outcomes would he the same. Dragon is defo hard to find ways in for sure tho.

And yeah, scrafty beats a type that got less than 1% usage in the 1760 stats, that somehow outweighs luchas niche though right? It also doesnt beat stall water at all, quag doesnt care about anything it wants to do. So again, lucha provides much more support to a fighting team than any C rank mon by far.

 

[Eien]

No gyarados doesn't beat it 100% of the time. Id have to get a replay of that because its complicated to explain but it only beats you of u play carelessly.

Armaldo doesnt handle lucha at all and getting a +2 hjk off on forry is really nice to do so terrackion can do its thing. Scizor can handle it yea but ur so pressed to BP and that just gives keldeo a free hardswitch to get a kill.

Fake out and bp actually dont 2hko lucha at all and not everyone uses mega cham so its hard to just use that as a lone excuse. Coba is also kind of hard to use because iron head does like 35 iirc and clicking t wave is extremely risky.

Hippo cant slack off +2 hjks at all and its pressured to roar because ur likely to be switching it in rather than straight up 1v1ing it. It being pressed to roar and take significant damage is what leads to late game sweeps from the rest of ur team.

Ill admit my brain died on the d nite argument with espeed. Im not sure what I was thinking. I should have said lucha can potentially take advantage of confusion or hydreigon if ur opp chokes. Those are the really only scenarios and then the outcomes would he the same. Dragon is defo hard to find ways in for sure tho.

And yeah, scrafty beats a type that got less than 1% usage in the 1760 stats, that somehow outweighs luchas niche though right? It also doesnt beat stall water at all, quag doesnt care about anything it wants to do. So again, lucha provides much more support to a fighting team than any C rank mon by far.

I'm not sure where Hawlucha is getting these Swords Dances in the first place if in your words except "only...if you play carelessly".

When does Hawlucha get free Swords Dances vs Bug, ignoring careless play? (Careless play includes leaving in Heracross) Galvantula Thunders, Volcarona uses Fire STAB, Mega Pinsir Quick Attacks, Banded Scizor BP 2HKOes through Sitrus so you can't SD without dying, LO or Mega SD Scizor sets up right next to you and can 2HKO, Forretress volts out into Pinsir? Again, as soon as you give a free switch to Pinsir somehow, Quick Attack comes down and you're done.

You always lose to clicking SD, so you have to Acrobatics or Substitute, neither of which are useful seeing as Pinsir comes in to OHKO you anyway. Acrobatics can't OHKO anything other than Heracross without activating the berry, so it's really a moot point. Hawlucha loses 1v1 to almost every Bug-type lol.

When does Hawlucha get free Swords Dances vs Ground, ignoring careless play? What Pokemon on Ground lets Hawlucha set up? Gastrodon has 2 Scalds to burn you, Mamoswine laughs and clicks Ice Shard, Excadrill guarantees OHKOes with Iron Head after Sand, you won't set up on Hippo's Roar, Mega Garchomp OHKOes with Draco 87.5% of the time, Mega Camerupt OHKOes with Fire Blast, Landorus-I OHKOes with Psychic, Dragon Tail Zygardes will phaze. Oh by the way, seeing as Ground always gets Stealth Rock against Fighting, Excadrill and Mega Garchomp actually have 100% OHKOs too.

Versus Gyarados:
Double down (Impossibility btw) resulting in Gyarados vs Hawlucha: Gyarados clicks Dragon Dance on your SD, Mega Gyara OHKOes because you didn't Substitute. Gyarados clicks Dragon Dance on your Substitute. You SD? You risk being in Waterfall range if he breaks your Substitute. You Sub? You risk him going for another DD. So now you're in a 50/50. Oh by the way, if you SD and he DDs, that's not even a problem because Hawlucha can't 2HKO Gyarados anyway after only 1 SD. Now it gets a 3rd Dragon Dance on your second SD. You can't OHKO Gyarados, and now it's faster than you even after Unburden, breaks your Substitute, and then OHKOes you without Mega Evolving.

Gyarados already in, you switch Hawlucha in (lol?): Gyarados clicked a move when you switched in. If it was DD, it just DDs twice more and now you've lost 100% as shown by the double down section. If it was Taunt, you're done because you can't set up while it can. If it was Waterfall, he clicks Waterfall 2 more times and you die. You can't 2HKO Gyarados while it 2HKOes you after Sitrus. If it was Substitute, it can just set up DDs on you just like in the double down section. I don't get it?

You said it abuses Gyarados trying to DD. How?

Versus Medicham: Um, Fake Out and Bullet Punch each do 34-40% so you do 68-80%, which can be over 75%. If you do 32% with Iron Head, that's a KO 100% of the time...
And I said if you don't use Medicham, you should have backup plans, say extra priority, or just not playing carelessly with Heracross.

For Scrafty, yeah it's pretty useless, but my point is Hawlucha is equally useless. (If you take only the top 6 usage types, Hawlucha is useless in 80% of the games assuming it is useful in SS water and Fighting, even though I disagree)

We shouldn't rank Hawlucha based on how bad players react to it, but based on how good players react to it.

 

[Wanka]

Im not saying its a fucking guarunteed SD but its certainly possible. We dont live in a fucking stalin era, nothing is all. An example of it getting am SD up is a hard switch into a heracross close combat. Like you've been saying "oh just go into forry and VS" you just SD on that forrey switch and get a boosted hit on it, leaving it open to terrack. And shit you could even save lucha to get another hard switch in on hera because even though bulky lefties is the better set, all u see is red card or a custap lead set. In the event its red card u hit it, get out with enough hp to get in vs hera again and you can apply insant pressure with acro from there. Now, thats just one scenario and other things could happen, but you asked when it could SD and I told you, for the second time.

Gastro only gets 2 scalds off in the event you get a stupidly low roll with +2 hjk. You have a very good chance of ohkoing gastro and in the event it does somehow live, have fun getting ur ass slapped by keldeo after that because gastro will be gone. Again, a case of lucha winning a game without even getting a kill. I already adressed how mamo is just a huge momentum sink against lucha, ur forced to click shard and keldeo just walks right in and applies immediate pressure so idk why ur still talking about that.

Again with gyara. First off, no shit nobody in their right mind should hard switching into a gyarados expecting to set up on it after its had a turn to do whatever, I never said that, I said it can in a 1v1 scenario. Any gyara has no reason not to just spam DD on luchas. Which is where the situation in subbing on the first DD and SDing on the second one can work. After you get the SD up though you dont fucking go for acro, you spam sub for a few turns to scout whether hes gunna attack you or not. If it starts hitting you, you'll be able to be behind a sub with ur sitrus eaten at +2 and then you can either ohko it from there or sd again as gyara breaks ur sub and then you'll outspace it since it will only be at +2. If when u start spamming sub and ur opp continues to DD so u dont get ur unburden boost, u can just spam sub until he tries to hit you or take advantage of ur opps aggresive play and sneak in another SD as he keeps on Dding. Even if it boosts past ur unburden, ur behind a sub and spamming sub will still let you be behind a sub at +2 or 4 with ur sitrus eaten. so once again, no, gyara doesn't beat it 100% of the time and thats a really complicated scenario so Id be happy to show you if you aren't pickin up what im puttin down.

In your post you specifically said medicham 2hkos lucha and it doesnt so don't justify it by saying "oh well coba kills it then so yeah it is 100%." And just saying "oh you should have backup plans without medicham" isn't going to cut it lol Idk about you but I don't worry about a B rank fighting mon when I'm making my own fighting teams, thats not a logical thing to do, you just have to play really carefully but that doesn't mean it doesnt give ur opponent an advantage in a fighting mirror because it 100% does.

This isn't really going anywhere so we might as well just leave it to vid and ant. I think it provides way more support to a team than any C rank mon and you don't think it does, there really isn't much else to say. You make a lot of good points but I really dont see it being on the same level as scrafty and chesnaught.

 

[Dece1t]

I agree with Wanka here Hawlucha is by no means C rank at all. It's a pretty good sweeper if you save it for the right time, and if you look at the Speed Tiers project, you can see why people like to use this, it makes it easy to clean up games. If you were to compare that to, say, Scarf Latios, also relatively weak without any boosts (and w/o baton pass, I doubt you'll be seeing it boosted with a Choice Scarf). But, because its so fast, it makes it extremely easy to finish up games once major walls/additional checks/threats are out. Eien you make good points, but, Hawlucha has an entire team of 5 other mons to back it, you need to note that fact when doing these huge write ups. I agree though, B rank in my mind is pretty suitable, because outside of being a late game sweeper, its pretty limited (besides STABS that are offensively amazing).

 

[Eien]

Im not saying its a fucking guarunteed SD but its certainly possible. We dont live in a fucking stalin era, nothing is all. An example of it getting am SD up is a hard switch into a heracross close combat. Like you've been saying "oh just go into forry and VS" you just SD on that forrey switch and get a boosted hit on it, leaving it open to terrack. And shit you could even save lucha to get another hard switch in on hera because even though bulky lefties is the better set, all u see is red card or a custap lead set. In the event its red card u hit it, get out with enough hp to get in vs hera again and you can apply insant pressure with acro from there. Now, thats just one scenario and other things could happen, but you asked when it could SD and I told you, for the second time.

Gastro only gets 2 scalds off in the event you get a stupidly low roll with +2 hjk. You have a very good chance of ohkoing gastro and in the event it does somehow live, have fun getting ur ass slapped by keldeo after that because gastro will be gone. Again, a case of lucha winning a game without even getting a kill. I already adressed how mamo is just a huge momentum sink against lucha, ur forced to click shard and keldeo just walks right in and applies immediate pressure so idk why ur still talking about that.

Again with gyara. First off, no shit nobody in their right mind should hard switching into a gyarados expecting to set up on it after its had a turn to do whatever, I never said that, I said it can in a 1v1 scenario. Any gyara has no reason not to just spam DD on luchas. Which is where the situation in subbing on the first DD and SDing on the second one can work. After you get the SD up though you dont fucking go for acro, you spam sub for a few turns to scout whether hes gunna attack you or not. If it starts hitting you, you'll be able to be behind a sub with ur sitrus eaten at +2 and then you can either ohko it from there or sd again as gyara breaks ur sub and then you'll outspace it since it will only be at +2. If when u start spamming sub and ur opp continues to DD so u dont get ur unburden boost, u can just spam sub until he tries to hit you or take advantage of ur opps aggresive play and sneak in another SD as he keeps on Dding. Even if it boosts past ur unburden, ur behind a sub and spamming sub will still let you be behind a sub at +2 or 4 with ur sitrus eaten. so once again, no, gyara doesn't beat it 100% of the time and thats a really complicated scenario so Id be happy to show you if you aren't pickin up what im puttin down.

In your post you specifically said medicham 2hkos lucha and it doesnt so don't justify it by saying "oh well coba kills it then so yeah it is 100%." And just saying "oh you should have backup plans without medicham" isn't going to cut it lol Idk about you but I don't worry about a B rank fighting mon when I'm making my own fighting teams, thats not a logical thing to do, you just have to play really carefully but that doesn't mean it doesnt give ur opponent an advantage in a fighting mirror because it 100% does.

This isn't really going anywhere so we might as well just leave it to vid and ant. I think it provides way more support to a team than any C rank mon and you don't think it does, there really isn't much else to say. You make a lot of good points but I really dont see it being on the same level as scrafty and chesnaught.

Ok. One question that you've ignored completely the whole time to pick at small pieces of an overarching argument: Why use Hawlucha over anything else?

Edit:
Had our talk, few things we needed to clarify with each other with the fast instant messaging:

Yeah it's Mega Gyarados lol which causes 50/50s all over the place.
Mega Medi thing was assuming Hawlucha subbed up and is at 75% hp.

We still disagree but at least everything's clear.

 

[StarBlim]

Stunfisk D -> C or B rank on Electric

After Doing the Electic Core Challenge with Stunfisk I saw it has alot more potential then D Rank. Haveing rocks and being pretty bulky with accses to status Like twave and Toxic (which ik almost all mons get) with haveing the Ability Static which can help alot if you're In a bad spot.

The Set I used During the CC:

Stunfisk @ Leftovers
Ability: Static
Evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Discharge
- Earth Power

Rocks helps alot vs threats like Volcarona Dragonite and Breaking sashes To Annoying mons like breloom.

Overall not always the best option but it's definitely better then D Rank.

 

[6ti]

Qwilfish Unranked > D or higher

Qwilfish currently sits at 40th place on water, with a 0.4% usage. I don't see why, because this seems like it's one of water's two viable suicide leads (the other being cloyster, which is better scarfed or shell smashing imo) and it has a pretty impressive movepool. T-wave, taunt, both forms of spikes, destiny bond, explosion, and acid spray scream "SUICIDE LEAD" to me for HO water, not to mention it's great ability and okay speed tier.

Qwilfish @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes / Toxic Spikes
- Destiny Bond / Explosion
- Thunder Wave / Poison Jab / Acid Spray
- Taunt

Taunt, hazards, and a suicide move are pretty much mandatory, but that last slot is up to you. I like t-wave, but the other two options can work in the situations that it gets taunted/it needs to attack.

Overall, I think this does cloyster's job better and allows your team to have an offensive cloyster, if your team even needs a suicide lead. I just think that it's too good to be unranked entirely.

 

[Zap]

Stunfisk D -> C or B rank on Electric

After Doing the Electic Core Challenge with Stunfisk I saw it has alot more potential then D Rank. Haveing rocks and being pretty bulky with accses to status Like twave and Toxic (which ik almost all mons get) with haveing the Ability Static which can help alot if you're In a bad spot.

The Set I used During the CC:

Stunfisk @ Leftovers
Ability: Static
Evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Discharge
- Earth Power

Rocks helps alot vs threats like Volcarona Dragonite and Breaking sashes To Annoying mons like breloom.

Overall not always the best option but it's definitely better then D Rank.

I did the same core challenge, and however nice it was to have rocks, i felt the trade off wasnt worth it. There were too many times that my go to sack was stunfisk, and too many times i wish i had one of the other mons that electric offers so that I could deal with certain threats. All it can really do is set rocks and then hope the person gets para'd, or that you para/burn it with discharge and scald respectively. It's typing really doesnt offer much to the type, and its only good niche is having surprising bulk and rocks. Other than that, nothing else. Looking at the other D rank mons in electric, I feel that it deserves to sit with them. Putting it at B rank is way too high, as Luxray sits there, and banded luxray actually helps vs a lot of match ups. Namely normal,grass, and dark. Not to mention being one of the only good physical attackers. C rank with thundurus-t i still feel is too high for stunfisk because thundurus gets a good typing, access to a variety of moves, as well as nasty plot. Personally I feel D rank fits it well.

 

[StarBlim]

I did the same core challenge, and however nice it was to have rocks, i felt the trade off wasnt worth it. There were too many times that my go to sack was stunfisk, and too many times i wish i had one of the other mons that electric offers so that I could deal with certain threats. All it can really do is set rocks and then hope the person gets para'd, or that you para/burn it with discharge and scald respectively. It's typing really doesnt offer much to the type, and its only good niche is having surprising bulk and rocks. Other than that, nothing else. Looking at the other D rank mons in electric, I feel that it deserves to sit with them. Putting it at B rank is way too high, as Luxray sits there, and banded luxray actually helps vs a lot of match ups. Namely normal,grass, and dark. Not to mention being one of the only good physical attackers. C rank with thundurus-t i still feel is too high for stunfisk because thundurus gets a good typing, access to a variety of moves, as well as nasty plot. Personally I feel D rank fits it well.

As I Do feel it doesn't offer as much as luxray or thund-t I do feel rocks are verry important and will say that D Rank doesn't feel right it helps alot and lately I haven't found myself building many electric teams without it but I do understand your opinion

 

[Seo.]

I agree to be honest, as much as i think a Stealth Rocker is useful for Electric, i dont feel like Stunfisk is up there just yet with Thundy-T, in fact. I believe Galvantula should be considered C rank for sticky webs, maybe to help banded Electivire/Luxray and Specs Raikou/Thundy-T do their job better, but im still iffy about Galvantula being C rank to

 

[Dece1t]

Qwilfish Unranked > D or higher

Qwilfish currently sits at 40th place on water, with a 0.4% usage. I don't see why, because this seems like it's one of water's two viable suicide leads (the other being cloyster, which is better scarfed or shell smashing imo) and it has a pretty impressive movepool. T-wave, taunt, both forms of spikes, destiny bond, explosion, and acid spray scream "SUICIDE LEAD" to me for HO water, not to mention it's great ability and okay speed tier.

Qwilfish @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes / Toxic Spikes
- Destiny Bond / Explosion
- Thunder Wave / Poison Jab / Acid Spray
- Taunt

Taunt, hazards, and a suicide move are pretty much mandatory, but that last slot is up to you. I like t-wave, but the other two options can work in the situations that it gets taunted/it needs to attack.

Overall, I think this does cloyster's job better and allows your team to have an offensive cloyster, if your team even needs a suicide lead. I just think that it's too good to be unranked entirely.

As a Tspikes setter, Tenta almost completely outclasses it. On top of that, it has little to no usage as it is. Personally I'd keep it unranked.

 

[6ti]

As a Tspikes setter, Tenta almost completely outclasses it. On top of that, it has little to no usage as it is. Personally I'd keep it unranked.

Tentacruel has no use as a suicide lead, but yeah it's outclassed as a tspikes setter. Tenta really doesn't do any damage and it isn't what certain teams want or need. And it could at least be D, because if vaporeon, megatoise, and mantine are all ranked there (which are all outclassed/not necessary) I don't see why qwilfish doesn't fit the niche of a suicide lead.

 

[scpinion]

Hide

I don't think Tentacruel is the comparison to make with Qwilfish (you should always use Tenta in that role). It is really Omastar and Cloyster we should compare it to. Those are the other options for a hazard stack/suicide lead.

While it isn't common, Qwilfish can fill the suicide lead that sets (toxic) spikes niche. It also has access to Taunt (neither Cloyster nor Omastar get that) and Explosion (Omastar can't boom) and doesn't introduce another Grass weak 'mon, which differentiates it from its direct competition as a lead. That seems enough for D-rank imo.

edit: just realized I said the same thing 6TI said earlier so I put this in hide tags...shoulda scrolled up before I posted. Anyways, I support Qwilfish at D-rank.

 

[6ti]

I think taunt and explosion make it outclass omastar in the first place, because even with weak armor it's still not very fast. Medium speed leads with taunt will render omastar virtually useless, but qwilfish will outspeed a lot of passive leads, forcing them into an unfavorable position.

 

[average fella]

I initially doubted 6TI, but I realized that Qwilfish's defensive typing, access to Intimidate, speed, and access to Taunt give it Water's only option to bring to sash a lead Breloom while laying a layer of hazards. (note: only works about 80% of the time if you play well, accounting for bullet seed hits, rolls, crits, and mach punch rolls/crits)

What you want to do is Taunt it immediately if you suspect that the other person doesn't know the Qwilfish suicide lead set (it seems like perfect Spore food!), then lay a layer of spikes, then boom on their poor mushroom, bringing it to sash. Dbond also technically works, but is less preferred due to it causing way more 50/50's than is necessary (and flat-out losing to Mach spamming after you get hit by a Bullet Seed.)

Some calcs!

-1 252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Qwilfish: 153-183 (56.4 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Qwilfish: 42-49 (15.4 - 18%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Qwilfish Explosion vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 263-310 (100.7 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also if you really want to you can run Adamant for a stronger boom, it outspeeds virtually every good base 70 creep spread possible so go nuts.

 

[Crimson Torrent]

Gourgeist-Super: Unranked --> B rank (Grass)

I guess I can't be too surprised Gourgeist hasn't been ranked on Grass yet considering that many players don't recognize its viability.
I've been using Gourgeist on my team practically since X and Y dropped and it's proven to be a highly valued member.

The set to run would be:
Gourgeist-Super @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Sneak
- Leech Seed
- Protect / Synthesis

Explanation

Gourgeist just offers a lot to the team. It couples extremely well with Ferrothorn and Cradily to counter Fighting types. Let me tell yuh, there's nothing better than taking out a threat like Mega Medicham or Hawlucha with literally nothing but a few switches between Gourgeist and Ferrothorn.
It offers wisp to burn any potential physical threats like Jirachi, Scizor, Dragonite, Gallade, Excadrill etc.
It can wall plenty of offensive 'mons, both special and physical, with its wisp/seed/protect combo.
Plus, Shadow Sneak can come in clutch to pick up the knock out, not to mention it can 2 shot Gardevoir and Alakazam and can pretty easily live shadow balls from the both of 'em.
Frisk even has its usefulness. Finding out Victini is banded and not scarfed is huge.
Oh and he can spin block, which can be important against bug, ice, and fire teams.

Noticing what is already ranked C in Grass, I have to say Gourgeist has proven far more useful than anything that's there now besides maybe Celebi, who kind of stands out among them and could maybe be considered B rank itself. So I definitely feel like it's deserving of a B rank.
If anything, It definitely should be C rank at least, but I stand by B rank.

So yeah, if anything needs more explanation let me know. Like I said, I've been using Gourgeist for quite a while so his usefulness might be more apparent to me than others. XP

Can I bring this back up again? I never really got any responses before and I see it still hasn't been added to viability either. :/

 

[Seo.]

Unranked-> B for Flying

Glidar (Gliscor) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 Spe
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Substitute

For Flying:
good on defensive cores, idk why its not ranked yet since its actually viable. Its usually seen on stall cores along side Zapdos and Skarmory. The Rock Resistance and Electric immunity helps flying out alot

 

[6ti]

The only thing I disagree w/ in what Rimz suggested is above is putting it at B rank. It sorta serves the niche of a bulky electric immunity, but defensive sets would probably only be used in (semi) stall. I think C would be a lot better for it.

 

[Dece1t]

The only thing I disagree w/ in what Rimz suggested is above is putting it at B rank. It sorta serves the niche of a bulky electric immunity, but defensive sets would probably only be used in (semi) stall. I think C would be a lot better for it.

I actually disagree. B/A I think would be a great fit for it. It can run a variety of sets, including Anti-Lead, SD Stallbreaker, Defensive/Mixed Wall. On top of that, it has a much needed immunity to Electric attacks. Sabella made an awesome team with it not too long ago, I'll pass the set he used.

Your girls Fav (Gliscor) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 204 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Ice Fang / Facade /Knock Off
- Roost

Sabella's Desc.

Sd gliscor is great for all those annoying bulky teams that also seem to have wallbreakers. Gliscor can be so hard to kill at times so this set really puts in work vs alot of passive teams like normal. Earthquake is the main stab hitting everything on steel but skarmory swords dance to boost against passive mons like chansey and clefable. Gliscor is also a great check to Diance while also hitting fairy extremely hard as nothing on fairy switches into eq and icefang/facade. This makes hp fire diance such passive threat to flying. This is totally your win con during that match. 56 speeds evs for adamant bisharp, timid specs magnezone and breelom. Ice fang also hits flying types like mega pidgeot, zapdos and mandibuzz.

Personally I think it warrants more towards A rank. Its a very fun mon to use that can fit into any playstyle.

 

[scpinion]

Stun has the best set for Flying above, imo. That thing can wreck Fairy teams (and Diancie!) almost single-handedly when played well. It can also be rough on Psychic teams since Slowbro's Scald does 53% max and it can't be burnt.

As for where to rank it, I think B makes more sense. A rank on flying is already crowded and includes major threats like Char-Y and Dragonite. I don't see Gliscor at the same level as those guys. That said, I do think it is better than the 3 'mons in B rank at the moment (Mandibuzz, Aero, Gyara).

 

[6ti]

Can I bring this back up again? I never really got any responses before and I see it still hasn't been added to viability either. :/

I know very little about grass, but I really don't think this should be ignored. Just from what I've seen, it at least deserves to be ranked, if not higher.