Policy Review Policy Review - Project Pace

[zarator]

zarator I almost posted earlier "Doug, couldn't you Always act as the ATL?" but it depends whether one person is happy to have this duty. I think that actually, 2 permanent ATLs would be the best, most stable and effective option.

Well, I think these 2 hypotethical ATL would not be forced to assume that charge^^ So I dont really see the point when you say "it depends whether one person is happy to have this duty". If they proposed themselves as ATL or at the very least have accepted that role, how could they be unhappy of what they have chosen to do?

 

[RBG]

Personally, I think that prolonged discussion threads that live past their prime mean that its time to move on. I'm not going to lie, I've mostly silently watched, but it did fell like their was lest interest in this project as time went on. If someone could go back through the old Projects and figure out the time table for how long each part of the process went, it could be a helpful guideline to figure out the right pace to go at, to keep people interested and excited about this project.

I also think having 1 or 2 ATLs would be helpful. There are always unexpected things that happen in life and I am surprised that it took till this project for some to come up (to my knowledge). I think how TAY and eric have been working on the Revising CAP 1 and 2 threads together is a good example, albeit the fact eric wasn't announced as assistant until after a few polls. As long as the ATLs roles are defined, then I think this solution would work perfectly.

I will try to think some up later and post them in about a day if no one else has done it yet.

 

[jagged_angel]

Well, I think these 2 hypotethical ATL would not be forced to assume that charge^^ So I dont really see the point when you say "it depends whether one person is happy to have this duty". If they proposed themselves as ATL or at the very least have accepted that role, how could they be unhappy of what they have chosen to do?

I meant if there was only one back-up TL it is lot of responsibility to take on board, that's all I meant. If, for example, DJD was willing to do it, fair dos.

With 2 back-up TLs, from different time zones, neither has to worry too much about keeping a hawk's eye on the TL every single night. So it would be much easier to find 2 suitable people to permanently take up this duty.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I stated in the OP that we could rely on mods to do it. But, I have always been an advocate of spreading responsibility and leadership around the community. Even if it turns out ot be largely an "honorary position" -- if the TL stays on top of things -- I still would like to see that honor bestowed on other members of the project. And, for that same reason, I think it benefits the community to have the person potentially change with each project.

 

[darkie]

I just got home and skimmed the thread. If anthing, like: the TL selecting someone to help out, and only one of them. In past there have only been a couple of occasions where the TL couldn't do anything, so we do need overkill on assistants? Not to mention, there could be conflicts (not about power, per se) about about when the thread has really died down. It is, after all, quite subjective. The TL could just be waiting for discussion to really die down, while the assistant could misinterpret that as the TL being away, and 'false-start' on the next thread.

Upon first reading this thread, I liked the idea. After thinking about the notion, though, I think it could be more trouble than its worth. There 5 people who consistently watch over this forum (myself, Doug, Bass, Mekkah, and X-Act), I think that is enough.

bass and doug leap to mind as they can both lock threads and are obviously qualified, that's if they're down with it.

e__________e

 

[RBG]

Darkie, I think that Mod and ATL are not the same thing. As Doug has stated, he likes it if the community has power and making the Mods the second in commands of the project takes away from what Doug wants. The Mods should only step in as a Last Resort, which could be alleviated by having an acknowledged ATL

Also, If their is an ATL, I would assume that s/he would communicate privately with the TL so as not to make any rash decisions like that.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

1) Whoever comes in 2nd place in the regular TL selection balloting

Pros

More democratic meaning the community is more likely to be happy with the choice of ATL.

I don't really know how it can be called "More democratic". Everything else about this project is pretty democratic enough.

More people involved in the choice meaning that the ATL is likely to be well rounded, reliable and experienced.

The TL won't be an idiot, Jagged. They'll pick someone smart. Seriously.

The ATL is more directly accountable to the community than if option 2 is chosen.

Mhm. That's kind of apples and oranges, though. If a decently well-respected user is chosen, then I don't see why everything wouldn't be cool.

The ATL will have to give reasons why they would make a good TL which acquaints the community and the TL selection panel with the ATL and gives them practice for becoming TL in the future.

This is a fair point, but still, when it's time for them to become a TL, they'll make their post then. I mean, come on, it's not like people don't know who each other are around here...

Cons

The TL and the ATL may not like each other, get on well or otherwise mesh.

Yeah. This is why this choice is really silly ... I mean, really ask yourself, why would we want to impose an ATL on the TL rather than just let them pick one themselves?

Less well known or less popular users will be less likely to be chosen, regardless of experience.

That's kind of just a fact of life, man. You have to start somewhere, and it's not ATL. Either way, a complete unknown won't be selected; not by the panel, and not by the TL.

2) Allow the Topic Leader to select their Assistant TL

Pros

The TL will (hopefully) choose someone they are well suited to working with, who may be able to support them better than (potentially) someone they have not encountered much before.

...Why would a TL be worse at selecting a partner for themselves than a panel? This is not a matter of consensus >ing credentials. In general, I think that's true. But this is choosing someone to work with. Why would you want to have them appointed, rather than just chosen by the TL, who it's going to affect? The TL himself is the important one.

The ATL will (possibly) be less likely to undermine the TL's authority in any way e.g. by ending or starting discussions or polls when the TL is not happy for this to occur.

Whatever. I mean, an ATL that can do their job is an ATL that can do their job. I think that either way, such an ATL will be chosen. The only question is why a panel should make a decision of who's going to be who's partner rather than just the person themselves, when the TL, who really matters, is selected by the panel.

Also, maybe the reason that the person who got in second didn't get in first in the first place is because so many of the TL leader board voted against him or her.

Example: TAY and Gorm (who pissed a lot of people off) both nominate themselves. TAY gets 11 votes. Gorm gets 1. Gorm becomes the ATL even though the only person who actually wanted him to be the TL was the one person who voted for him. (Respect, Gorm. I'm just using it as an example.)

Cons

The TL may choose someone the community deems unqualified for ATL.

Nah. I've addressed this.

The TL may only choose his/her friends.

Yeah, and the panel selection process isn't a popularity contest at all, either.

Not that I think it's legit a popularity contest ... I just think that it's silly to say that that's a factor with this but not a factor with the other alternatives.

The TL may choose someone who is not That interested or dedicated to the job (i.e. not enough to submit themselves for TL).

This can be fixed by a beautiful little thing called Common Sense. Don't restrict it to people who nominated themselves to be TL, because some of them might not want to be Assistants, and there are other people who would! So just have the TL send out a PM to his pick for ATL first! It's the TL's assistant. And if they're up for it, then they've got the job. That's how it works, period. Everywhere. So come on.

 

[jagged_angel]

Have you read the rest of this thread Parad? The definition of ATL that I was going by back then and the definition you seem to be going by are both incorrect.

As DJD said earlier, Assistant TL doesn't really give the right impression as a name. This person isn't going to be "working with" the TL per se. They're not going to have to communicate privately much at all.

Probably a better name is Back-Up TL i.e. someone who only steps in if the TL goes out of the loop for several days.

Soo, how the BTL is chosen isn't that important. The main thing is someone who is knowledgeable about the CAP process, is fair and unbiased and who's on the forum pretty much every day.
Possibly they would be from a different timezone or 'wave' of users to the TL.

As a result, the TL doesn't have any need to choose someone they know well and the panel doesn't have any need to choose someone who would 'get on well' with the TL.

What's important in this thread is not to spend ages discussing how to choose the BTL but rather exactly when they should step in and how to act regardly any decisions made in the TL's absence.

 

[darkie]

Umm why wouldn't they need to communicate?

...there could be conflicts (not about power, per se) about about when the thread has really died down. It is, after all, quite subjective. The TL could just be waiting for discussion to really die down, while the assistant could misinterpret that as the TL being away, and 'false-start' on the next thread.

There should be contact. For example, if I'm TL, I would send a PM to Bass, "hey man, i'm gonna be out of town until the 20th, so i'll need to you step in for me."

 

[billymills]

The first poll and/or discussion thread for a given step on a CAP project should normally be open for two days.

Agreed, but first polls after a discussion should only be open 1 day.

All secondary polls should be open for one day only.

I thought this was already a rule. We need this now.

The Topic Leader should monitor the posting/voting rate of all threads and move on to the next step when project activity begins to lull.

Discussion threads yes, polls no. Polls it should be known how long a poll is going to be open when it opens, and that should not change.

We should select an Assistant TL to help the Topic Leader monitor project pace, tally votes, and to step in during project lulls and open new threads, if the Topic Leader is not available to do so.

1) Whoever comes in 2nd place in the regular TL selection balloting
2) Allow the Topic Leader to select their Assistant TL

2) is the better option.

 

[Hyra]

I'm gonna say I support much of the stuff Doug says. There were parts of Stratagem where I was just waiting for the next poll to roll around (mainly because some aspects of the creation don't really appeal to me, but w/e).

I do want to say that I support the idea of a Topic Leader choosing an assistant. During Fidget, the simple fact of Sunday being in Aussie and starting/ending threads during my non-peak hours was annoying, because I could see there was nothing going on, but had to wait another 12 hours for him to get on to move the process along. This is why I think the Topic Leader should try to pick someone from a timezone opposite to their's, so that if a Topic dies while the TL is asleep / at school/work the community can move on.

The main point I want to stress is having one TL from US/UK and one Assistant from Aussie (or vice versa) so that threads are constantly under control.

 

[Coronis]

I agree with most of these posts. I think it is a good idea to have an ATL, and for that person to be in a different time zone to the TL. I believe that the TL should choose the person they want to be their ATL.

One thing I'm concerned about though, is whether there are enough Aussie's to have different ATL's in each project, because, personally I have only seen about 1 or 2 of them.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Conclusion:

I will update the Process Guide sticky to include the poll timing recommendations in the OP.

I will also update the Topic Leader rules to include the position of Assistant TL. Each Topic Leader will choose their own Assistant TL. The ATL's primary job will be to monitor project pace, and serve as a backup to the TL, in case the TL is unavailable to lead the project.