Doubles National Dex Doubles OU - Metagame Discussion - Survey @ Post 106!

[rubycandy]

Is there a discord server? if not is there interest in the creation and moderation of one?

 

[Smudge]

Is there a discord server? if not is there interest in the creation and moderation of one?

The discord server is linked in the first post! Please join us https://discord.gg/v2DzTQPjhp

 

[rubycandy]

The discord server is linked in the first post! Please join us https://discord.gg/v2DzTQPjhp

Idk how I did not see it LMAO MB

 

[Smudge]

We're suspect testing Zygarde!

You can find details on the reasoning and more info about the test process in the Suspect Thread

Once you get requirements, you may post in the Voter Identification Thread.

The suspect period will go until Sunday, September 10th at 6PM PDT (GMT -7).

 

[RudeLiees]

Blastoise mega is pretty strong + shell smash with mega launcher hit hard (3 ohko blissey with aurasphere) and indeedee follow me let him setup easily, and no Pokémon outspeed him except trick room team

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Its ability Is not the top in doubles since muddy water Is better

 

[zee]

Hi so I just got reqs

This was the team I used: https://pokepast.es/e70e4cc193f877e9

Super simple team, most games I either lead Kangaskhan + Zygarde or Chien-Pao/Kangaskhan + Urshifu. Feel free to use this for your runs if you'd like. I'm not sure I actually want to vote ban on Zygarde based on the games I've watched and played. Honestly I felt like Scarf Urshifu was the most broken part of my team, and I only abused DD Zygarde to its fullest against players who were entirely unaware of what I was about to do. It's a liability when the opponent can prioritize Knock Off, pressure me with Urshifu + Fake Out, or just not use a team with 4 ground weaks. Follow Me Jirachi seems to be the big point of contention around Zygarde, as it can redirect all of its weaknesses away for resisted damage. But we did elect to test Zygarde instead of Jirachi, and as a council member that's also on me for not thinking critically enough about the causation of Zygarde's dominance. I guess all that to say that I'm still leaning towards a ban, but I do think there's some more pressing brokens in this tier and I'm sure we'll see them abused during NDPL.

 

[SquidSpring]

my personal viability rankings, moved here from NDOU a few weeks ago and i’m having a blast, this is probably one of the most fun tiers i’ve played

 

[ratpacker]

Boring balance

Flutter Mane lives Swords of Ruin Urshifu, Incineroar lives Close Combat from Marshadow.
No way Stakataka is Tier 4.

Roomba 2 the sequel


Psyspam with Basculegion


Zygarde setup

Zygarde outspeeds Metagross after one Dragon Dance. Instead of Kangaskhan it should be some special attacker with a Z-move but I didn't find anything good.

(click the sprites for a surprise)
(the teams are the surprise)

 

[Smudge]

Hi everyone, just a small update. We now have a Simple Questions Simple Answers thread, please direct shorter questions to this thread from now on! Posts will be moved as necessary.

The Zygarde Suspect is still underway, and pending the results and release of the new Pokemon of the first DLC, once we have a clearer picture of the metagame, we'll update the viability rankings. A couple people have been asking about it, so that's our plan.

 

[Glimmer]

Post Derby VR post or something :c I am sad that I had to do this so early but it was a good run! Was happy to be on Twinleaf Turboblaze

Whole VR

Tier 1
The absolute tippy top of the metagame. These are by far the most splashable and useful mons in the entire tier and fill very crucial roles in the metagame.

1.
No one should be surprised I believe. The 10 bp nerf of Grassy Glide has done nothing to damage the throne of Rillaboom as Tera and the sheer existence of Rillaboom makes up for it immensely. The banning of Genesect and the recent dominance of Dragon Dance Zygarde further solidifies its place as the singular best Pokemon in the tier by a god damn landslide. It is by far the highest usage and singlehandedly halts the sheer presence of Pokemon such as Tapu Fini and Urshifu-Rapid-Strike and dominates the terrain metagame to the point where the fact that Tapu Fini has Misty Terrain can be largely irrelevant until the opponents Rillaboom dies. The fact that it is the winner of the terrain war almost always makes it a great partner for so so many comps, ranging from SubDD Zygarde builds, Ting Lu SpikeStacks, and Chien-Pao Hyper Offenses.
2.
Best Rillaboom counter second best Pokemon? No way!!!! Jokes aside the metagame and new Speed mechanics work highly in favor of Mega Salamence, pair that with a valuable defensive profile against Marshadow, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike and especially Rillaboom, and you have a recipe for success. Flying is an incredible offensive typing in this meta much to the same reasons as Grass, Steel-types are just very very sparse. Mega Salamence takes great advantage of that with Aerilate boosted Double-Edge and Hyper Voice, and you already have a very solid mon. But that is not it! With dynamic speed, Mega Salamence's fast Tailwind became one of the most valuable tools to have on an Offense team, and the (questionable) availability of Jirachi makes Dragon Dance Mega Salamence a very strong pick for more Balance-like structures.

Tier 2
Very dominating forces of the metagame. They serve their valuable niches at high performance but don't perform as well as the Tier 1s.

3.
Early on into the meta most thought this was by far and away the best Pokemon and maybe should be banned. While the second opinion still holds true for me, I simply cannot deny it had a clear drop in usage and performance since the olden days a month ago. Between the sheer presence of Prankster Tailwind, Rillaboom Chien-Pao stuff, and even the random physical Choice Scarf users that popped up (mostly Urshifu-R), Flutter took a good drop in viability, but is still living on. Very few Pokemon in the tier actually reliably counter Flutter, even a bunch of Assault Vest users and defensive utility Pokemon like Rillaboom and Tapu Fini need to have a seperate Tera type to not get annihilated by a Choice Specs Moonblast. I am however more of a believer of Booster Energy nowadays, Speed Booster is incredible into offensive structures and SpAtk Booster gives it good power while letting it Protect which is crucial versus more defensive cores who falter when they can't outmaneuver Flutter Mane.
4.
Honestly a tough choice who would get number 4, but I gotta give it to Chien-Pao. Chien-Pao manages to break several mons with the massive boost of Sword of Ruin and still is a very threatening Pokemon on its own right, usually to the point of completely offensively complimenting common partners such as Urshifu-R, Marshadow, Kartana, and of course, Rillaboom. Both Life Orb and Focus Sash Chien-Pao are incredible as Life Orb threatens to OHKO all 3 of the top 3 Pokemon and Focus Sash gives Chien-Pao free turns to support its allies with Sword of Ruin or gives it that one extra turn to get rid of some annoying things like Kingambit and Volcanion. Currently it feels like Offense is only this strong because of Chien-Pao so it more than deserves this high of a ranking.
5.
The most respectable mon in the entire tier, gotta give props to my guy Volcanion. The typing and sheer bulk already puts in it the spotlight for a lot of doubles metagames but being the most easily splashable counter to Flutter Mane and Chien-Pao makes this mon a hell of a lot more useful and splashable. The only real issues it has are its not so great Mega Salamence matchup and its neutrality to Grass as a Fire-type, but a lot of these issues are fixed in face value due to the sheer bulk and damage Volcanion has. These aspects are also amplified due to the very distinct lack of Super Effective moves to be used on compared to its iterations in ORAS, SM, and SS, where there was a good chunk of top tier Pokemon who hit it super effectively. Steam Eruption is also incredibly powerful and good versus a good chunk of the meta as most switch-ins fear the 30% burn chance greatly.
6.
Honestly only this high because it is incredibly high on the broken scale. Apparently, when you give a Pokemon with 1 counter and a few checks a way to beat said counter with ease, that Pokemon is no longer a healthy force in the metagame! This mostly applies to the Dragon Dance sets as Choice Band does not benefit as much from Tera. But between Clear Amulet, Jirachi redirection, Tera, and an almost unresisted spread attack, Zygarde feels no short from broken. Rillaboom shatters as a check the moment Zamazenta passes a Coaching onto Zygarde or Zygarde Tera Fires, the inherent weakness of Zygarde is no longer a problem due to Clear Amulet helping it permanently stay at +1 and making it immune to Intimidate and Parting Shot, and Zamazenta teams can even get away with Tera Normal Extreme Speed Zygarde so Marshadow cannot steal the Dragon Dance boosts and you get a STAB strong priority attack that out prioritizes every other one. Basically a recipe for disaster.
7.
I have no idea why this mon was such low pick rate in the first 5 weeks. Yeah, it is no longer the Incineroar we used to know but it is still by far the most utility any singular Pokemon has. It does have way more counters nowadays in the form of Clear Amulet, Covert Cloak, Urshifu-R, and Defiant Kingambit, which cuts into its viability a lot, but having this much utility on this good of a Pokemon makes it stand out from the rest. Assault Vest has been picking up steam due to there being many ways to block Parting Shot and Incineroar needing the extra special bulk to wall stuff like Flutter Mane. This AV set fits both on bulkier structures and more offensive ones, due to the sheer amount of things it does in a slot, it is hard to go wrong with a mon like Incineroar.
8.
Next Pokemon on the problematic list for me as of right now. Jirachi's obscene bulk paired with the unavoidable Follow Me has a tendency to break Dragon Dance users like the aforementioned Mega Salamence and Zygarde. You cant even properly ignore Jirachi, otherwise it might set Stealth Rock or Trick Room, it might Encore you if you try to Fake Out it or its teammate. Pair all of this with the inherent hax Serene Grace Iron Head brings to the table, making this a very annoying mon to fight and a pretty unhealthy addition to the metagame. Jirachi functions perfectly on Balance builds, its only weak point is that its performance is subpar when it is used on Offense, which is alright since that already has Chien-Pao to make it broken.
9.
This Pokemon seeing a lot of usage surprised me early on, but it simply fits on every team style out there. It fits on Offense it fits on Balance it fits on Trick Room it fits on Setup Spam it even benefits from Chien-Pao. It also has an insanely valuable typing, a Steel-type that is not weak to Ghost is surprisingly hard to come by. The sheer power Kingambit has also makes it have a great matchup into anything without Iron Hands. Swords Dance sets are extremely threatening, and Assault Vest sets are the easiest things to trade with in the entire tier. The valuable typing, incredible matchups into most structures and the fact that it is so easy to fit a Kingambit makes it stand out from the rest of the bulky attackers earning it a top 10 spot.
10.
11.
I will be talking about these two in the same segment because they have one thing that makes them stand out, which is of course Prankster Tailwind. The only difference in their playstyle is how they execute this role, Tornadus on the one hand is a lot more focused on damage, Whimsicott on the other hand is a lot more focused on being a nuisance to the opposing team with its access to almost all annoying support moves. Both of these are incredible fits on Offense, giving their strong offensive pokemon a nudge of speed for 4 turns is unsurprisingly very effective at making the prevelance of these two top 10 worthy.
12.
Urshifu continues to be the premier Offense killer with its newly gained access to Tera and the damage boost from Sword of Ruin coupled with the already obscenely broken ability Unseen Fist makes this SS demon even easier to break with in ND. It does have some issues of losing hard to Rillaboom and especially Mega Salamence, but it more than makes up for it with its really good matchups across the board aside from those two. Urshifu is also by far the easiest Water-type for any Offense to slap on and give opposing offensive structures a tough time.
13.
This is kinda the opposite archetype of Urshifu, Mega Metagross very much so is one of the best Pokemon to destroy a Balance build with. The coverage of Iron Head, Stomping Tantrum, and Thunder Punch is very hard for bulky structures to consistently switch in on as Mega Metagross' Tough Claws ability makes these moves immensely powerful and shuts down would be check like Iron Hands. Its natural bulk and good typing also make it a staple mega in Bulky Offense.
14.
Oh how my girl has fallen. The sheer prevelance of Rillaboom and there being very few ways to outright threaten it hurts Tapu Fini so so much. But it is not all doom and gloom, Calm Mind is still a very effective sweeper with Tera and the help of redirection. I am a fan of specifically Tera Dragon on it as this makes it resist all 3 of Fire Water and Grass which is crucial for the success of Calm Mind Tapu Fini. Tapu Fini is more relegated to bulkier builds as always and functions as the singular best counter to Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao, and Urshifu-Rapid-Strike. These qualities coupled with the Balance killers being very low in count in the higher usages makes Tapu Fini a formidable Pokemon and earns it the Tier 2 spot.
15.
I do not know how a Pokemon has this much utility and can also 2HKO the entire tier, but Mega Kangaskhan does it. Normal is a surprisingly nice typing as it provides a good matchup into Flutter Mane. The sheer bulk coupled with Fake Out and the massive Seismic Toss damage output makes Mega Kangaskhan shine as one of the best Fake Out users in the entire metagame, fitting quite well on almost anything.

Tier 3
Respectable Pokemon in the metagame. They are quite solid but they either are not as good at filling a niche or their niches are less applicable than Tier 2.

16.
I will be honest I was not much of a Marsher but the sheer usage and good offensive typing grants it a spot here.
17.
Surprisingly effective typing coupled with insane bulk and either utility in Assault Vest Fake Out or sweeping potential in Swords Dance.
18.
Its niches are cut down from previous gens but it is a very effective breaker when under Grassy Terrain and Sword of Ruin, dealing massive damage and snowballing out of control very easily.
19.
Fast Coaching with that much bulk is really good it also gets some other support options like Snarl and Wide Guard and it can also one shot Flutter Mane with Heavy Slam.
20.
Sun is good Mega Charizard Y does struggle vs Mega Salamence and Volcanion but the sheer presence of Sun is good enough for a high ranking for Mega Charizard Y.
21.
Mostly relegated to sun but can work in normal offensive structures to support Flutter Mane. Deals really good damage and has a decent typing to do so.
22.
Intimidate is good and Lando-T is very strong, Assault Vest, Flyinium Z, Groundium Z, Choice Scarf are all viable sets but Landorus-Therian is not a very high performing mon it is just decent at a lot of things.
23.
The existence of Grassy Glide Rillaboom and Mega Salamence makes this interpretation of Basculegion far more bearable but Last Respects is still very broken.
24.
Trick Room users being far less viable here cuts into Ursaluna's viability. Ursaluna is still by far the strongest Trick Room attacker and continues to OHKO most of the metagame when under Trick Room.
25.
Mostly relegated to Electric Terrain teams but it does dish out a good chunk of damage while being the fastest viable Pokemon and is only walled by Assault Vest Kingambit and Volcanion.
26.
Electric Terrain is viable and Tapu Koko has a nice speed tier that outspeeds Marshadow which is pretty neat. Can also use Z-Moves again and I think the most viable set is Electrium Z.
27.
One of the few Flying resists in the tier, pretty good Trick Room setter but doesn't appreciate the abundance of Rillaboom, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike and Mega Metagross.
28.
Hazards are really valuable against all playstyles and Glimmora is the premier hazard setter, Stealth Rock breaks the Focus Sashes of Offense and Toxic Debris poisons bulkier Pokemon.
29.
Shadow Tag is a really good ability and Gothitelle also has Fake Out but it does not have as much bulk as it would need for it to be broken.
30.
This might be a hot take but I do not think Amoonguss is that good with the top of the metagame either dealing Super Effective damage to it or outright ignoring it. It is still pretty decent as Spore, Rage Powder, and Pollen Puff is an incredible combination.
31.
Bulk Up Palafin is really punishing against Offense relegated to Physical damage due to it being immensely bulky with a good typing and having priority and self sustain.

Tier 4
Niche Pokemon in the metagame. They are not something to rule out in building but are much less of a consideration than Tier 3s.
32.
Really bulky and really strong Flying resist that suffers a lot of the issues Diancie has without having access to Trick Room. It is a really good Sun counter though.
33.
There are very few switch-ins to Dracovish and it fits both in Sand and Rain, but its switch-ins happen to be top 1 and top 5 Pokemon respectively.
34.
Superior Rain setter with access to support moves like Encore and far better bulk than Pelipper.
35.
Inferior Rain setter. Tailwind is good role compression though.
36.
Pretty good in Rain with Sandsear Storm and on Offense. The Speed tier is kind of lacking and it needs to run Hidden Power Ice for Mega Salamence.
37.
It is the best Swift Swim abuser but wishes it had more power behind its Draco Meteors.
38.
By far the best Expanding Force user, does suffer from a low physical bulk but is good in Trick Room.
39.
Sludge Bomb, Draco Meteor, and Flamethrower make for a deadly combo and Naganadel can snowball out of control easily, but it doesn't do much else aside from being a good offensive Pokemon.
40.
Fast Coaching with the added utility of Fake Out and Taunt and still having Snarl makes Zeraora a good consideration. Flying resist is also nice.
41.
Pretty outclassed and Tera hungry for a Dragon Dance sweeper, but the new items Clear Amulet and Loaded Dice help a lot and it gets good value from Tera Electric.
42.
Typing is pretty unfortunate defensively but Make It Rain and Shadow Ball paired together only has a few checks in the tier.
43.
Psychic Terrain helps a lot of Pokemon like Flutter Mane and Mega Gardevoir and a Ghost immune Follow Me is nice.
44.
A more offensively inclined Psychic Terrain setter, also comes with a way to one shot Zygarde and has Taunt.
45.
Very passive but obscenely bulky and Lunar Blessing and Trick Room are pretty unique.
46.
Tera and Trick Room reliant but does very well in both and can snowball out of control easily. Is also the hardest counter to Mega Salamence in the tier.
47.
Suffers from much the same issues as Cresselia but gives Vessel of Ruin and hazards instead of Trick Room and Lunar Blessing.
48.
Main issue with it is being a Steel-type that does not resist Flying, otherwise a solid Pokemon with two good sets.
49.
It is alright as a Chien-Pao abuser but it isn't the best and overlaps with Mega Salamence.
50.
Not particularly good at anything but the sheer amount of good moves it has grants it a spot.

Tier 5
Very niche Pokemon in the metagame. They fit very specific roles and should not be used on most teams.

51.
Only viable on very Hard Trick Room, the Ruin abilities cut massively into its bulk and it turns into a Tera hog a lot of games.
52.
Its alright on Hard Trick Room only problem being Mega Salamence and Urshifu-Rapid-Strike.
53.
A weaker version of Mega Tyranitar, I don't like Teraing Tyranitar due to the massive amount of bulk it loses. Pretty alright on dedicated sand teams though.
54.
Requires a lot of speed control to get going but awesome typing and good coverage make up for it.
55.
Clangorous Soulblaze is rly nice but it can be hard to get it off in this metagame due to Flutter Mane, Chien-Pao, and the abundance of Fake Out.
56.
Aurora Veil and the Snow buff are nice but it doesn't do much else.
57.
Scarf Heatran is cool on Sun and thats about it. Flying resistance is nice versus Mega Salamence and you have a good Eruption.
58.
Covert Cloak is a massive buff to Deoxys Speed as it is near guaranteed to get Stealth Rock and Taunt up. Psycho Boost also does surprising amounts of damage.
59.
Good typing and good ability but Tsareena lacks the stats to really excel at staying on the field for extensive amounts of time.
60.
Another Hard Trick Room attacker. Springtide Storm is good damage output but it can miss and Enamorus-Therian has a kinda mid typing.
61.
A Zeraora without Coaching and Fake Out, but Intimidate can be nice on a Flying and Steel resist.
62.
I am of the thought this is one of the worst viable rain abusers. Being 4x weak to Grassy Glide is just so incredibly miserable on an archetype that already struggles with Rillaboom.
63.
64.
65.
These are the other bad rain abusers but Ferrothorn is a decent Steel type and Regieleki can work in Electric Terrain and Zapdos can use a bulky Misty Seed Tailwind set.
66.
Doesn't do much to the main issues of sun, opposing Flutter Mane and Volcanion. Has decent damage but is not much notable.

 

[Glimmer]

Oh well not much changed with DLC, Hearthflame Ogerpon is a cool girl though, it deals a lot of damage and stuff, probably not broken due to having to choose a last move slot, still extremely strong in normal Offense and in Chien-Pao stuff. I have been using the 6 of , Hearthflame seems like an excellent Coaching and Tailwind mon, but it has issues with Incineroar and Mega Salamence which isn't nice. Kingambit and Urshifu are there to help counteract Incineroar and Electrium-Z Zeraora and Kingambit do a bunch vs Mega Salamence. Rillaboom is Rillaboom but it also gives a massive kick to the offensive presence of Wood Hammer on Ogerpon. Last move felt very up to intrepretation for me personally, Play Rough, Superpower, and Taunt all seemed cool enough. Overall pretty cool Pokemon, maybe Teal could also be experimented with a bit and Wellspring could have a decent use with Follow Me, we will have to see. The poison trio all seemed pretty mid or bad from testing, Bulk Up Okidogi might have a niche, Fezandipiti has a weird movepool and a weird stat spread, Munkidori is just middling in performance. Bloodmoon Ursaluna seems cool but I haven't been able to justify it over regular Ursaluna. Surprisingly balanced DLC considering the nature of previous ones, Ogerpon is the best mon and it has a normal ability and 550 BST before Teraing.

 

[Iceberg77]

So with the conclusion of the inaugural Doubles Derby I wanted to make a teamdump post here to share the teams I used during the tour and provide some of my thought processes behind them. Unfortunately some of them might be a bit obsolete with the release of the DLC, but I don't think the DLC has changed that much for this tier so they're probably still usable anyway. When I signed up for Derby I genuinely had no expectations of being drafted at all as I am still very new to the community, so the fact that I ended up starting in NatDex and going 5-2 overall with my team winning the entire tour is so much more than I could have possibly asked for, and I am very happy with both my own individual performance and obviously with my team's performance as well. Huge thanks to GenOne and the rest of the Red Spects for giving me a chance and being such an awesome team to play for; I had a blast during this tour and I think I improved quite a lot as a player as well because of you all, especially when it comes to teambuilding. Special shoutouts to Actuarily Hys and Toxinalpaca for all the help with teambuilding and testing, you guys are the GOATs.

Click on the team sprites to see the pastes. Also I won't be making any VR noms as I haven't actually played the DLC meta at all so I don't know exactly where things stand at the moment.

Week 1 vs Despacito87 (W)

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Going into week 1, I wanted to keep things simple and go with the team structure that I thought would be the most reliable into any matchup, which of course ended up being a Zygarde / Zamazenta / Jirachi core. This team was heavily inspired and influenced by one of the teams that Nido-Rus used to win Kickoff; this team maintains the same essential structure but replaces Marshadow and Volcanion with Zamazenta and Glimmora in order to orient the team's focus even further in the Zygardian direction. The gameplan here is to spread as much damage as possible in the early game through the combination of toxic spikes + Seismic Toss, then set up with Zygarde and win by easily cleaning up all of the weakened targets. I think this team does a good job of utilizing Zygarde to its near-maximum potential, and it synergizes so well with Kangaskhan whose consistent guaranteed ~50% damage output is just unreal for wearing even the bulkiest teams down.

Week 2 vs xqiht (L)

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This team is... not great. This week is definitely my biggest regret of the tournament, as both my prep and my play were subpar which combined for a very disappointing landslide defeat. I knew I wanted to use rain going into week 2, but I wasn't sure exactly the type of structure it should take. We ended up deciding on a fusion between the Ezrael Rain sample team from SM and Dracovish rain from SS, but I didn't get nearly as much opportunity to test this team as I would have wanted and was unable to iron out the flaws that are present in it, the most glaring of which is absolutely no reliable way of dealing with Volcanion, which is detrimental to any team but especially a rain one. I basically went into the game just hoping that I wouldn't load into Volcanion, which I thought I could possibly get away with given that xqiht had only brought one team with Volcanion in all of Kickoff and Derby until that point, but I was deservedly punished for such a foolish hope. All this being said, I still do think that Ferrothorn has some kind of legitimate niche in this tier with Iron Defense + Body Press. It can be very hard to take down when supported correctly and can serve as a very potent lategame threat under the right circumstances.

Week 3 vs JRL (L)

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After my experimental venture in week 2 failed so miserably, I decided to once again go with something more standard in week 3, falling back on my favorite Zygarde + Kangaskhan core. This team originally had a Choice Scarf Basculegion in the Marshadow slot, as I really wanted to use Basculegion at some point in this tour, but it just felt very underwhelming in testing and eventually Hys suggested replacing it with a Marshadow instead, which proved much more effective. I think Basculegion is probably at its best with a bulkier build on semiroom teams in this tier, as scarf lacks the needed flexibility in a tier with a power level as high as this one. I'm actually pretty happy with this team in contrast to week 2, but I played pretty poorly in the game itself against JRL's very cool rain team, making silly misplays such as letting Volcanion faint against rain for zero value in return. We live and we learn.

Week 4 vs Nido-Rus (W)

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This team is super fun, it's probably my favorite out of all the teams I built for this tour. Clicking buttons with Ursaluna never gets any less satisfying. I knew I wanted to abuse Gothitelle at some point in the tour, as Shadow Tag is busted and I thought it was severely underexplored at the time (it still is). I thought pairing it with Ursaluna could be an interesting idea, allowing Ursaluna to freely target its victims without any risk of them pivoting out into something else, or potentially giving it setup opportunities on mons unable to threaten it. Amoonguss keeps Ursaluna and Diancie healthy while providing redirection support, while Salamence and Incineroar threaten the Grass types that are problematic for both of the Trick Room attackers (these threats can also be effectively removed through the help of Gothitelle's trapping), while simultaneously providing Intimidate and Fake Out support. The battle against Nido was extremely close, and I got helped out by the fact that their Cresselia did not have an attacking move, but overall I think the team proved itself pretty well.

Week 5 vs Glimmer (W)

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After looking at Glimmer's scout going into week 5, I determined that I wanted to bring the tried and true threat from SV DOU: Swords Dance Iron Hands. Misty Seed Hands is one of my favorite archetypes in this format, so I essentially just revised a similar team (https://pokepast.es/395a6dfe675d72f8) that I had used back in Kickoff and had decent success with. The idea is that Psychic Seed Hands was a very popular archetype in SV DOU pre-Home, and Misty Seed has the same effect, but with the added bonuses of getting to use Tapu Fini instead of Indeedee and the fact that Misty Terrain prevents Iron Hands from being statused. I replaced the gimmicky Defiant Tornadus with the much more consistent and reliable Mega Salamence and swapped out Urshifu for Chien-Pao, and that was that. This ended up being my most high-stakes game of the season, as my team was down 3-4 against the Turboblaze and if we lost then we had no chance of making playoffs, so winning this game was essential in bringing us to a tiebreaker to even have the chance to make it. Fortunately the most reliable Pokemon of all time had my back and I was able to clutch out the win.

Semifinals vs JRL (W)

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In my rematch against JRL for the semifinals I decided to take the Gothitelle angle again, but this time going with a fast offense approach rather than a Trick Room one. Whereas in my week 4 team the goal was to trap things for Ursaluna to devour, the goal this time was to do the same thing but with Choice Specs Flutter Mane and/or Mega Charizard Y instead. I went with Substitute Zygarde to take advantage of Gothitelle's trapping and potentially sub up on things for free, and Glimmora was a perfect fit for the last slot as it dealt with multiple things that the team needed, namely hazard control and a way to threaten Fire types, and as mentioned before toxic spikes are always good with Zygarde. Soft Sand on Zygarde was a last-minute change, but the item can really be any of Soft Sand, Leftovers, or Clear Amulet. I intentionally didn't bring Clear Amulet this week as JRL's scout only had one Intimidate mon (but they did end up bringing Incineroar in the actual game). The match ended up being very different than I expected as JRL brought an Eevium Z + Baton Pass team, but Gothitelle was by far the MVP in this matchup as Shadow Tag and Taunt were incredibly disruptive to their strategy and they were never able to get the Eevee boost off.

Finals vs eragon11145 (W)

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I didn't have much to go off of when scouting eragon for this tier except for a few replays from Derby and NDPL, but from the little information that I could gather I really liked the idea of bringing Landorus this week, as it matched up well into their affinity for Chi-Yu and other Fire and Steel types. Landorus's biggest issue is its middling speed tier, so I knew I needed to pair it with speed control to get substantial value out of it. My first idea was to pair it with Iron Bundle, but I scrapped that idea before even testing the team at all as Bundle felt far too frail and unreliable, especially for a Finals game. I instead went with Tapu Koko as my main speed control option and replaced Bundle with Tapu Fini, which gave the team a much needed Fire resist and a better matchup into Zygarde and Marshadow. Originally I had Chien-Pao and Mega Scizor over Kyurem and Metagross, respectively, but Scizor felt underwhelming and a bit out of place, so I replaced it with Steel Roller Metagross as I already had dual terrain on the team anyways (which I'm very happy I got to bring as I think Steel Roller Metagross is one of the coolest things in this format). Actuarily suggested replacing Chien-Pao with Kyurem after some testing, which ended up being an incredibly good call as Kyurem was definitely the MVP of this game. I think AV Kyurem is pretty underrated in this format after using it here; it's incredibly bulky and powerful at the same time and just trades either favorably or equally into pretty much everything in the tier. Definitely recommend using it.

 

[sir jelloton]

Shout out to the tier leaders for getting the new samples up and updating the rankings.
I've got a team dump on the way soon!

Here are some changes I'd make to the VR

T3 -> UR
You could maybe get away with t5 if regular ursaluna didn't exist, but it does! So I see no reason to use this mon ever. It's incredibly slow but just fast enough to get undersped by every relevant tr mon, and still not fast enough to get any use out of tailwind at all. You can't even use it as a set up win con in this tier it's spdef is terrible. It's been used twice in ndpl and did very little and lost both games. The mon has no niche.


T1 -> T2
Ogerpon in the tier means you don't have to use it as your redirector which it previously was undoubtedly the best option for 90% of the time, and there have always been plenty of semiroom structures without rachi on the team, so it really isn't tier 1 dominant


T1 -> T2
Tier 1 for Flutter feels more reasonable than rachi, but it struggles to fit on teams with other fairies like the tapus and diance who I think are in a really good spot rn, there's so much prio everywhere to threaten it, and it's booster sets don't feel nearly as good in this tier as it does In SV. It's still a flutter mane but it's a lot less *do anything on any team* and there are actual reasons not to use it here.


T3 -> T4
It can check urshifu defensively which pretty much no other mon can say, but that's really the only thing it has left going for it. Ogerpon makes it's already descending viability start to plummet and I could see it lowering to T5 eventually, there's just less and less reason to use it as time goes on


T3 -> T4
I think it can be a very threatening semiroom, but in terms of doing pretty much anything else it's outclassed by other offensive waters(usually urshifu but I think other rain abusers are better as well)


T3 -> T5
Did i miss an ndpl game or something? If so could somebody please send me the replays . Otherwise I see no reason why it would be any better than t4, and I'd argue Koko is the better electric type so I wouldn't even go that high.


T5 -> T4
It's a redirector that naturally resists and dissuades the best set up mon in the tier , but it also unlike wellspring can hold an item like covert Cloak, making it much harder to stop it from using the moves it needs. In the two ndpl games it played and won in, it really patched up the weaknesses in previously really hard to build styles like sand and e terrain. Teams that don't want rillas support really like this mon.


->4
It's always been a good diance partner and that mon has a great spot in the meta rn, it got decent usage in kick offs, was used on a psyspam team in derby play offs and won, and It's never really been unpopular. Why has this mon missed the vr twice?


T2->T1
People use dd way more often but band zygarde is incredibly splashable and fits on a multitude of different teams and styles. I also think dd is even better post dlc. Before zyg could be checked offensively by waters like urshifu or tapu fini even after Tera somewhat consistently and diance beats it 1v1 90% of the time even after it gets multiple boosts, but next to wellspring none of those are consistent answers anymore. Had the slate been post dlc I would have voted ban.

 

[Smudge]

VR update! (In alphabetical order)
We've added a fifth tier, to have a more granular ranking system, so some drops may be indicative of their relative placement within Tier 4 previously.

You may see each individual vote in the list below.

Rises

Deoxys-A UR->5
Iron Hands 3->2
Jirachi 2->1
Kyurem-B 4->3
Lilligant-H UR->5
Marshadow 3->2
Mega Diancie UR->5
Necrozma UR->5
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike 2->1
Zamazeta 3->2
Zeraora 4->3
Zygarde 3->2

Falls

Amoonguss 2->3
Basculegion 2->3
Dracovish 4->5
Dragonite 3->4
Enamorus-T 4->UR
Grimmsnarl 4->5
Hoopa-U 4->UR
Iron Bundle 3->4
Kartana 2->3
Landorus-I 3->4
Mega Camerupt 4->5
Mega Manectric 4->5
Mega Tyranitar 3->4
Naganadel 4->5
Palafin 3->4
Regieleki 4->5
Tapu Koko 3->4
Ting-Lu 4->5
Torkoal 4->5
Tsareena 4->5
Tyranitar 4->5

New

Deoxys-S New->5
Eevee New->5
Ogerpon New->5
Ogerpon-C New->4
Ogerpon-H New->3
Ogerpon-W New->3
Ursaluna-Blood-Moon New->3

Apologies for the delay, I've had a few busy days and needed some time to make a more complete post.

 

[SquidSpring]

Nom Post!


Tier 5 —> Tier 3
(On par if not better than )

hits the crucial base 121 speed tier, allowing it to outspeed and by extension most of the metagame, in addition hits a massive chunk of the metagame for super effective (for example etc.) and has decent matchups into other metagame staples like and non assault vested, is also able to ohko specially frailer Pokémon like and from full even without super effective damage, is an incredible asset to the tailwind teams it functions on, bolstering it’s already incredible speed even further so it can fire off it’s virtually unwallable attacks at targets that would initially be able to outspeed it such as , in turn letting it threaten them. Unfortunately is relatively frail and requires careful prediction, but a skilled player will easily be able to reap the benefits of a terrifying properly placed . Other smaller but still valuable traits include a 4x resistance to 's Grassy Glide and other very valuable resistances such as Fire, Fighting and Water that provide with switch in opportunities. This Pokémon is able to rip huge holes in teams with ease and is definitely not on par with the very underwhelming , therefore I believe deserves a spot next to Pokémon like as a Tier 3 fixture of tailwind teams, or Tier 4 at the very least.

The Set
Naganadel @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
Tera Type: Poison / Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast / Heat Wave
- Sludge Bomb

 

[YoBuddy]

It is time for another tiering survey to see how the community views the metagame following the Zygarde suspect test.

Please take the time to fill out the survey:

https://forms.gle/Wd9cgGg4z94DuKbu9

-Thanks, NDDOU Council

 

[Glimmer]

A Simple, Extensive Guide to ND DOU Offense
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As most of you might know, Offense is by far one of the strongest playstyles in NatDex Doubles, but abusing this Offense can be a bit more delicate than other tiers Offense archetypes. Since the tier is so strong it is not that easy for Offense to remain offensive without losing hard to something specific, so I am gonna go over how to structure an offensive team without it falling apart to Kingambit.

PART 1: POKEMON TO USE

The Offense

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The essential part of an offense team is the offensive pokemon you use to define your team. These pokemon make your team offensive, and generally your builds surround around supporting these high damage output Pokemon.


Kartana is a more utilitarian offensive addition, while having the most amount of attack in 181 base and having access to Beast Boost, one of its main selling points is the fact that it can set Tailwind while being so offensively threatening. While the Steel typing doesn't give it much offensively, Kartana can defensively invest to live things like Mega Salamence Hyper Voice or Iron Bundle Freeze Dry due to its already insane Attack stat. In fact, a Kartana with 232 SpDef to live Life Orb Iron Bundle Freeze Dry still has more Attack than an Adamant Max Attack Urshifu-Rapid-Strike. Kartana can also use a more offensive Substitute + Z-Move set to put more pressure on the opposing team and deal massive damage versus checks like Tornadus and Jirachi.


With a jaw-dropping damage output and bulk, near universal coverage, and the option to delete anything from existence using Steel Roller, Mega Metagross is one of the better offensive Pokemon due to its sheer amount of stats. Iron Head deals massive damage to everything that is not a resist, Stomping Tantrum hits common Steel-resists like Kingambit and Volcanion, Thunder Punch makes Urshifu-RS and Mega-Charizard-Y sad, and Bullet Punch can be used to pick off things late-game and deal massive amounts of damage to Flutter Mane and Chien-Pao. Steel Roller is the aforementioned other option, while not being as consistent of a damage dealer, Steel Roller Metagross has the very nice option of completely obliterating neutrals and less bulky resists.


The quintessential offensive pokemon. It's incredible Water/Fighting STAB combo coupled with the sheer brokenness of Unseen Fist and Surging Strikes off of base 130 Attack. With being hard to check and very hard to play around with all of these traits combined, Urshifu-RS is an incredible Pokemon to have on your offensive team. Water Bear has two main sets it can use, the very popular Choice Scarf set, and a bulkier Adamant Mystic Water set. Choice Scarf is stellar into opposing Offense, outspeeding everything at neutral bar Booster Energy Speed Flutter Mane and Deoxys-Speed, and Mystic Water is better into more Balancey structures and Trick Room due to its significantly higher damage output and ability to Protect versus Fake Out.


Marshadow's incredible offensive Ghost/Fighting STAB combo with a nice yet awkward speed tier and Spectral Thief make it a premier attacker and a very strong threat. The ability to Tera Ghost makes it very strong every setup attacker aside from Swords Dance Kingambit. Aside from the anti-sweeping abilities, Marshadow is an incredibly threatening pokemon due to its ability to hit everything in the tier at least neutrally, having Technician Shadow Sneak, and its Fake Out immunity. Marshadow's main counterplay is outpositioning, due to this, you want to deal as much damage as you can with Marshadow. Due to this, Life Orb and Marshadium Z are the main sets, both of which running Spectral Thief, Close Combat, and Shadow Sneak.


Even though its not as broken as it is in SV DOU due to the omnipresence of other Ghosts and Urshifu-RS being a better Water-type attacker, Basculegion is still an extremely threatening late-game sweeper due to the sheer power of Last Respects. Even though its a demanding sweeper, TailRoom structures (Offense structures consisting of a Trick Room setter and a Tailwind setter) can make Assault Vest Basculegion work extremely well. Gaining Flip Turn has also helped it massively, giving it an actual last move to click early game when it cannot OHKO everyone and their mothers. As mentioned before its main set is Assault Vest to let it tank hits when clicking Last Respects. Choice Scarf can also be used but it is mostly a lesser Urshifu-RS due to its lower speed and lower power and oppressiveness early game.


If Urshifu-RS is the quintessential Tailwind Bear, Ursaluna is the quintessential Trick Room Bear. Ursaluna has unparalleled damage output and massive bulk letting it live big attacks such as Urshifu-RS Aqua Jet and Rillaboom Grassy Glide even at -1. Normal/Ground is also awesome offensively for a mon as strong as Ursaluna due to the most meta relevant resist to both of those being Tier 5 Celesteela. It is one of the only Trick Room attackers who can force a kill even in a bad matchup if you position correctly, since it has the theoretical ability to OHKO every non-Celesteela target after it gets Guts activated even without Tera. Ursaluna's set is very straightforward, Facade, Single Target Ground STAB, Protect, and whatever you want as last, whether it be Substitute to protect it from Fake Out, Swords Dance to further enhance damage output and punish switches, or even double Ground STAB just in case you don't want a Defense drop.


Chi-Yu's Beads of Ruin makes it a potent breaker, dealing massive damage even to Fire resists. This combined with Sun makes Chi-Yu the most nuclear Special breaker in the tier, the moment you can give Chi-Yu a speed advantage it will apply a ton of pressure. The Fire/Dark is also surprisingly nice defensively for a strong pokemon, as Chi-Yu resists Grassy Glide, Shadow Sneak, and Sucker Punch. Chi-Yu's ability does not only boost itself, it can also boost other teammates to absurdity, such as Flutter Mane, Mega Gardevoir, or Iron Bundle. Chi-Yu can run a good range of sets, the most splashable is Choice Scarf due to the immediate speed advantage it gives. Choice Specs can make Chi-Yu by far the strongest breaker in the tier while Life Orb gives it the option to switch between the combination of Heat Wave, Overheat, and Dark Pulse while also being able to Protect, and lastly Assault Vest gives Chi-Yu actually decent bulk while still being really strong.


Ogerpon-H is the physically oriented version of Chi-Yu, as it is also an absurd Sun breaker that can 2HKO most things after Tera. It is also faster than Chi-Yu and unlike it, it can also get boosted by the other ruin, Chien-Pao. All these attributes make Ogerpon-H a potent breaker. Although it is a bit Tera reliant on getting a lot of damage done and Grass + Fire while nice has a few important things it cannot hit, notably Dragons like Mega Salamence and Fires like Incineroar. Ogerpon-H can also act like an offensive redirector for Sun so it's other attackers have an easier time versus strong attackers such as Flutter Mane, Mega Metagross, and Ursaluna. Ogerpon-H can also use a Substitute set so it cannot get Intimidated or Faked Out.


Could not bring myself to close out this section without mentioning one of the best special attackers we have had in any format, Flutter Mane. Ghost/Fairy combo on a Pokemon that strong and fast simply is not fair, being Fake Out immune and hitting everything neutrally aside from nonexistent types like Normal/Poison. Its fraility starts to not be a factor when you realize this thing only really needs to outspeed Mega Salamence, and does ridiculous damage even without maximum investment. Living something like a Mega Metagross Bullet Punch or a Chien-Pao Ice Spinner goes a long way when Flutter Mane is this strong and threatening.

The Bulk

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As much as the pure offense makes up the offensive team structure, the bulky mons are what holds Offense together and make it a playable teamstyle.


This pokemon is nothing short of incredible when it comes to patching up Offense's weakness to itself, with sheer bulk and absurd power coupled with the very nice Steel/Dark typing and the Defiant ability to abuse glues like Mega Salamence, Incineroar, and Landorus-Therian. With few actual weaknesses and Sucker Punch off of 135 base attack, Kingambit is a bulky mon that can be used in Offense that is also very good into opposing Offense. While the more common Assault Vest takes on more of a bulky role that takes on most of the meta off of sheer bulk, Kingambit can also be really offensively threatening with a Swords Dance Black Glasses set, threatening to do a lot of damage on soft checks like Choice Scarf Urshifu-RS and Chi-Yu.


A Fire/Water with Water Absorb and that much bulk is simply too good defensively. Being one of the sole consistent Flutter Mane checks even under Sun makes it a great defensive piece for Offense. It makes great progress versus fatter structures due to the sheer damage output of Steam Eruption and its physical bulk. Assault Vest and Substitute + Leftovers are both good options for Volcanion. Assault Vest makes it the most consistent check to Sun and makes it live very strong special attacks like Mega Gardevoir's Expanding Force. Substitute + Leftovers exerts more offensive pressure due to making Volcanion immune to Fake Out and make it live attacks it isn't supposed to, like Iron Hands' Wild Charge or Landorus-T Stomping Tantrum. Leftovers is especially nice when Rillaboom is so dominant, as Volcanion can get enough HP for another Substitute every other turn.


Being one of the only safe switch-ins to Choice Scarf Urshifu-RS makes Tapu Fini a valuable bulky piece in offensive teams. Calm Mind Tapu Fini can simply win games in the absence of Rillaboom and Support Fini is excellent at role compressing in more setup heavy offenses featuring pokemon such as Zygarde and Kingambit. Tapu Fini's bulk also lets it live extremely strong attacks like Sword of Ruin boosted Mega Salamence Double-Edge making Tapu Fini a nice defensive piece to have.


Being by far the most consistent answer to Marshadow, Lando-T finds itself in a wide niche where it can use a wide variety of sets to answer or kill different things. Choice Scarf sets are more damage and pivotting based, while also being able to soft check Mega Metagross and Mega Salamence. Stealth Rock is by far the most used and splashable set, Lando-T is a very consistent Stealth Rock setter while also being offensively threatening with 145 base attack Stomping Tantrum or Supersonic Skystrike.


While a nicher, more passive pick; Cresselia bolsters a lot of bulk and one of the best supporting moves ever in the form of Lunar Blessing. Cresselia is able to take on neutrals due to its massive bulk and supports its teammate with speed control in the form of Trick Room, Icy Wind, or Thunder Wave. Cresselia also has a wide attacking movepool, having coverage moves that hit common weaknesses of setup Pokemon such as Ice Beam for Zygarde or Moonblast for Chien-Pao. Lunar Blessing is a must have for any Cresselia set, but rest of the set is pretty customizable according to your structure.


Mega Scizor has the incredible niche of being a Steel type that always threatens to OHKO Flutter Mane. It also has incredible physical bulk and can invest in its HP due to Technician letting its main STAB be Bullet Punch. It matches super well into Chien-Pao, Rillaboom, and Flutter Mane, and has just enough bulk to live two Surging Strikes from Choice Scarf Urshifu-RS. Swords Dance is a very threatening bulky wincon due to its natural bulk letting it set up multiple times throughout a game. Pivot Mega Scizor takes advantage of how common the things it switches into are and keeps the momentum going, giving room for your own fast breakers like Flutter Mane or Marshadow.


Dragon/Ground is incredible on a mon with that much bulk and the ability to Tera on top of having STAB spread attacks with no immunities and a setup move that boosts its speed in the form of Dragon Dance. These combined make Zygarde the most fearsome setup sweeper and also the most slappable one. Tera Fire or Tera Normal Dragon Dance Zygarde is stupidly bulky with few actual checks and can setup by itself without much extra support, because its Ground-type STAB threatens out bulkier foes such as Kingambit, Volcanion, Iron Hands, Mega Metagross, and Jirachi. As mentioned Dragon Dance is by far the most used set, but Choice Band is also a usable set that has more immediate power while bolstering similarly absurd bulk.


With the bulk expected from a Box-Art legendary, Kyurem-Black is a very diverse and very fun pokemon with various sets that all make it leverage its insane stats, specifically its bulk and 170 base attack. Due to its stats it can 1v1 neutrals very easily, and being able to Tera gives Kyurem-Black so much value. It can check Mega Salamence and Zygarde, while being able to do extremely well into Rillaboom, Volcanion, and the genies naturally. Kyurem-Black has two main, polar opposite sets, in Dragon Dance and Assault Vest. Dragon Dance with Clear Amulet is an extremely good sweeper with its only real issue being that it is a single targetting sweeper. Assault Vest gives it even more bulk and puts Kyurem-Black in the more bulky attacker/supporter role, running moves like Icy Wind and Dragon Tail.


Well I was talking about the sheer bulk of Kyurem-Black and all that right? Since it is a Box-Art legendary? Well Iron Hands' bulk is EVEN higher. With the downright ridiculous 154 HP stat paired with solid defenses you would be very lucky to OHKO Iron Hands, even an Ursaluna has a chance to not ohko 0/0 Iron Hands with a simple Intimidate, not to even mention it living Max SpA Modest Flutter Mane Moonblast with just an Assault Vest and has the ability to OHKO it with Heavy Slam. Assault Vest is the main set, as it gives Iron Hands more bulk and lets it run all 4 attacks which it absolutely likes, as with Fake Out and dual STABs there, it wants to run all 3 of Volt Switch, Heavy Slam, and Ice Punch last. Swords Dance is also a very threatening bulky sweeper with the ability to run a lot of sets, since it only really needs the moves Swords Dance and Drain Punch.

The Support: Offensive Edition

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This is where most of what makes an Offense core good happens, the supports to the offensives. But who said good supports couldn't be offensive?


As one of the best supports in an offensive team, is also offensive itself. Mega Salamence takes big advantage of the scarcity of Flying resists as it is the strongest Flying-type in the format. It also has some crucial resistances, letting it soft check bulkier Urshifu and Volcanion and hard counter Rillaboom. With dynamic speed carrying over from Sword and Shield, the base 120 Speed Tailwind is very crucial to get your Offense up and going versus other offensive structures as outspeeding stuff is very important to not lose your damage trades. As mentioned, Tailwind is its main set, but Mega Salamence also has a neat trait of being a Physical Attacker that is not too threatened by Intimidate, as it can simply run a mixed set with Hyper Voice.


Tornadus is similar to Mega Salamence in many ways, a Flying-type Tailwind setter. But Tornadus trades a lot of defensive utility for Prankster Tailwind and weather moves, and the ability to run a Covert Cloak or Flyinium Z. Prankster Tailwind is as good as ever and Tornadus takes full advantage of this due to being a more offensively inclined pokemon and gaining the nice spread move Bleakwind Storm this gen. As mentioned, Tornadus' one and only really good set is Tailwind, but it has some options for its last slot. Most Tornadus opt out to more supportive options like Taunt, Sunny Day, or Rain Dance but a more offensive approach with Heat Wave to hit Jirachi and Mega Metagross is also an option to consider.


Rillaboom is just everything you want from a Doubles pokemon, bundled up into a package with a good BST and stat spread, very good bulk, the unique and near essential Grass-typing, quite literally unmatchable terrain and position control, a very strong STAB and a relatively strong priority move at 55 bp. Rillaboom is just about what you need and theres very very little reason to ever not use it. Even though its sheer popularity pushes its hard counters to popularity too, the sheer amount of partners it pairs up super well with is simply unparalleled, including setup attackers, Chien-Pao, and even something as simple as AV Kingambit or Volcanion. While Assault Vest is the main and by far best set on Rillaboom, its spreads are quite customizable depending on the type of role you want Rillaboom to partake in. More Hyper Offense-like structures may just prefer a maximized Attack stat while bulkier Offenses might want a bulkier Rillaboom to take hits from Flutter Mane or Urshifu-RS a little bit better.


Mega Kangaskhan is sort of weird when it comes to the Offensive Support category, it doesn't seem like it has much stats or typing to shine in a format as strong as NatDex Doubles, but its role as an Offensive Support is sort of unmatched. Normal-type is entirely unique to Mega Kangaskhan giving it an immunity to Flutter Mane's Ghost-type attacks and making it neutral to most of the metagame aside from the Fighting-types. This neutrality to the metagame is very useful as having little weaknesses lets it abuse Parental Bond Seismic Toss, 2HKOing 90% of the metagame aside from Ghost-types and bulkier Kyurem-Black, and Mega Kangaskhan can run Sucker Punch or Shadow Claw for Ghost-types. It's main set is Fake Out with high bulk investment as it does not need any attack invest to deal massive damage.


By far one of the most offensively threatening support. Sun is usually viewed as the playstyle where Chi-Yu and Flutter Mane dominate, but never count out Mega Charizard Y. It has a very high Special Attack stat with Sun also boosting its Heat Waves to ridiculous levels. It also has Helping Hand and Tailwind whenever it doesn't need to attack or needs to boost its teammates to give them a little bit more damage output. The Fire/Flying typing also gives it a nice matchup into Mega Metagross and Mega Scizor, which Flutter Mane appreciates. Mega Charizard can either lean into more damage with its good coverage in Solar Beam or Scorching Sands for Urshifu-RS and Tapu Fini, or Volcanion and Incineroar. Or it can use a more supportive set using Helping Hand, Tailwind, and Heat Wave or Overheat.


Rock/Fairy while not seeming like anything special, gives Mega Diancie a really nice niche of being a Trick Room setter that counters both Chien-Pao and Mega Salamence. Diamond Storm is also very strong into the meta, Diamond Storm + Body Press being a very nasty combo, letting it have a single target option to OHKO would be Diamond Storm answers like Urshifu-RS in a pinch. Being able to Tera Grass out of the Rillaboom, Urshifu-RS, and Spore weakness is also a massive buff to Diancie letting it more consistently kill stuff and set Trick Room. Diancie's only set is the aforementioned Offensive Trick Room setter with Diamond Storm Body Press Trick Room and Protect. The item choice is team dependant, but my favourite picks are Weakness Policy to punish Aqua Jets and Grassy Glides, Hard Stone to boost Diamond Storm's power even more, or a terrain seed to get Diancie going earlier.


Chien-Pao is especially good as a support in this format due to the sheer strength of physical attackers in the form of Mega Salamence, Urshifu-RS, Mega Metagross, Rillaboom, Marshadow, and Kartana just to give more popular examples. Chien-Pao also has a nice combo of Ice/Dark/Fighting that threatens Mega Salamence, Kingambit, and Zygarde due to its very high speed tier in 135. Chien-Pao has two main sets that solely run different items but it changes the playstyle of Chien-Pao drastically. Focus Sash is the most common choice, letting Chien-Pao stay on the field for one more extra turn to get more turns of Sword of Ruin. Meanwhile Life Orb takes more advantage of its damage by itself since 135 speed with that coverage is no joke, with Life Orb Tera Dark doing massive damage to would be checks like Volcanion.

The Support: Bulky Edition

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The more traditional supports are still very much so still existent and help your offense structures a lot in backbone building.


Jirachi's good bulk with Steel-typing already makes it decently valuable, but Follow Me makes it an outstanding support to some of the strongest pokemon in the tier, such as Dragon Dance Zygarde and Mystic Water Urshifu-RS. Jirachi has a good matchup versus a good portion of the tier, including but not limited to: Mega Salamence, Rillaboom, Sucker Punch Chien-Pao, Choice Specs Flutter Mane, and even Kyurem-Black. Jirachi's spreads vary through teams but its sets are pretty straight forward, it runs Follow Me, Iron Head, Protect, and as last move it can choose from Encore, Trick Room, or Life Dew.


With 660 BST, the highest Speed in the metagame versus unboosted targets, and all the support moves a mon could ask for, Zamazenta is a competitor to one of the best support pokemon in the tier. The combination of incredible speed, good bulk, Coaching, Snarl, and Wide Guard, and being able to counter Kingambit and Chien-Pao, makes Zamazenta a good defensive piece for Physical Offense as this playstyle tends to be weak to a lot of stuff Zamazenta annoys. Zamazenta can really run any combination of utility + Fighting STAB (Body Press or Close Combat) + random coverage like Play Rough or Heavy Slam.


Even though the meta is super hostile to Incineroar, it finds a place as it has the three most essential tools in a bulkier support, in the form of Intimidate, Fake Out, and pivotting. These attributes and the fact that it is the hardest counter to Chien-Pao and Rillaboom, which are very common in general and with eachother. Intimidate also can be used to dissuade the damage from Mega Salamence and Knock Off can cripple Flutter Mane, Zygarde, and Zamazenta. Incineroar's main use case is utilizing its entire support kit, with Fake Out, Knock Off, Flare Blitz, and pivotting move depending on its item.


Prankster Tailwind and Encore are very annoying and very good supporting options especially in this offensive meta, giving Whimsicott a place. Covert Cloak is a nice addition for Whimsicott to run out of Hyper Offense, making it immune to Fake Out and making it be able to run bulkier sets without Protect more freely. Whimsicott only really needs Tailwind and an attacking move, the rest of the set could realistically be anything, from Encore to Fake Tears to even a weather move like Sunny Day.


Gothitelle is in a weird place, Fake Out + Shadow Tag in this meta is ultra broken and enables stupid attackers like Urshifu-RS even further, but it is also kinda frail with only a Pure Psychic-typing and is hard to fit due to that fact. Due to its typing it has very low defensive utility aside from its broken combination of moves, but this makes it more usable. Gothitelle needs to use Fake Out, Psychic, and Protect; and can choose from Taunt, Helping Hand, Trick Room, and Hypnosis.


Amoonguss is one of the lesser redirectors, but it shines due to its good matchup into Fighting-types such as Urshifu-RS and Marshadow and having the very broken support move in Pollen Puff. These attributes make it useful on Trick Room teams and setup teams, due to their inherent weakness to specifically Marshadow and Urshifu-RS. Amoonguss runs a standard moveset of Spore, Pollen Puff, Rage Powder; with a filler move such as Protect, Clear Smog, or Leaf Storm.


Indeedee-F has the unique combination of terrain control + Follow Me, which makes it a nice pokemon to have in certain structures. Psychic Surge enables faster, frailer mons even further; and cripples Rillaboom and Electric Terrain teams. Psychic/Normal isn't that bad, having an immunity to Ghost is nice against Marshadow, Flutter Mane, and Basculegion. Indeedee runs a moveset of Follow Me, Expanding Force, and Protect paired with Helping Hand, Trick Room, or Heal Pulse with Safety Goggles, Sitrus Berry, or even Eject Button.


Politoed is the best rain setter, as it is the one with the most bulk which helps it answer Urshifu-RS and Chi-Yu. Eject Button lets its teammates make the most of Rain, and Helping Hand is enough to boost your rain abusers power to absurdity. An Eject Button set with Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Helping Hand +1 whether it be Toxic or Encore or something simple like Protect.


Mew's gimmick of knowing every TM ever makes its support pool more like a support pacific ocean. Fake Out, Tailwind, Trick Room, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Snarl, Will-O-Wisp, Pollen Puff, and Coaching just to name a few. This makes Mew be able to role compress a lot of things into one slot, which is a cool niche on more setup heavy Offense teams. Any combination of these important support moves paired with an attacking move works great on Mew.


By far the bulkiest Trick Room setter, Porygon2, is sadly not that good in this format, but it is definitely usable in more Trick Room reliant Offenses. The bulk and neutrality to a lot of the tier gives it a decent matchup into a lot of less strong attackers, especially those of which you are hit by BoltBeam. Porygon2 should be only used if you're sure your Trick Room structure is stable into Fighting-types, as it overlaps weaknesses with Diancie, Ursaluna, Kingambit, and Stakataka. Porygon2 uses Ice Beam Thunderbolt Trick Room Recover to keep Trick Room up consistently.

And here is a VR for Offense mons if you wanted more clarity on their usability:
NOTE: that this is only ranked for their usability and viability in OFFENSE

Tier 1​
Tier 2​
Tier 3​
Tier 4​
Tier 5​

PART 2: COUNTERS TO COMMON OFFENSE KILLERS

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Now onto the important part. The main point of making this post was due to the amount of good players bringing offensive structures that completely fall apart versus the most common Offense Killers, so I felt like there should be some sort of explanation on what to use to not die to opposing Offense or Offense Killers.

Pokemon​	Archetype​	Checks​	Counters​
​	Bulky Attacker​	​	​
​	Strong Attacker​	​	​
​	Fast Attacker​	​	​
​	Strong Attacker​	​	​
​	Fast Attacker​	​	​
​	Fast Attacker​	​	​
​	Trick Room Attacker​	​	​
​	Fast Attacker​	​	​
​	Trick Room Attacker​	​	don't let them Trick Room.​
​	Strong Attacker​	​	​
​	Fast Attacker​	​	it does die i guess​
​	Strong Attacker​	​	​

Kingambit is by far one of the easiest pokemon for offense to randomly lose to, for good reason. With outstanding bulk and power combined with its Steel-typing and STAB Sucker Punch is already enough, but it also has a great matchup chart and has Defiant to punish Mega Salamence, Incineroar, and Tornadus.
COUNTERPLAY IN BUILDER:
Kingambit has a few soft checks like Sacred Sword Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, and bulky Zygarde, as listed above. Zamazenta is one of the hardest counters to Kingambit, due to Dauntless Shield and the ability to use Coaching on teammates to make them stronger into Kingambit and even threaten to damage Tera Fairy sets with Heavy Slam. Iron Hands is the hardest counter to Kingambit due to Fake Out preventing any setup or side targetting and naturally resisting both STABs while being very bulky, bulky enough to easily live Tera Fairy Blast.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Kingambit's very bad speed in 50 makes it very prone to getting worn down by strong attackers, especially those of which who can face tank Sucker Punch with ease. Not ignoring Kingambit's presence and attacking is the best way to not lose to Kingambit. Also never have two Pokemon out that both severely lose to Kingambit at once, you do not want it to get a free attack off or a Swords Dance. Kingambit usually likes to be out on the field with Mega Salamence and Volcanion which patch up its weaknesses to Zygarde, Chien-Pao, Urshifu-RS and Zamazenta. If you can force out these common teammates, Kingambit becomes way less threatening.


While being one of the main supports of Offense itself, its also a weakness for Offense, due to how much it boosts the opponents damage output, it makes it very hard to deal with Chien-Pao.
COUNTERPLAY IN BUILDER:
Chien-Pao by itself is not that hard to check, it has many checks in the form of Volcanion, Urshifu, Diancie, Iron Hands, which can tank hits from even Life Orb Chien-Pao. And there is also Zamazenta, Incineroar, and Tapu Fini, which hard counter with their respective traits. Incineroar has Intimidate, which hinders both Chien-Pao and its partner greatly. Zamazenta can use Coaching to boost up a teammates Defense so it becomes less weak to Chien-Pao. Tapu Fini resists everything Chien-Pao could throw at it and sets up on it with Calm Mind.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Chien-Pao needs to stay on the field for its teammates to get the damage amp, so the best way of dealing with Chien-Pao is making it be threatened into switching out. Speed control and Fake Out work wonders at making Chien-Pao's user forfeit the Sword of Ruin boost. All forms of Intimidate also work super well, even base Salamence can hinder Chien-Pao a lot with proper play even though it is slower than it and is weak to Ice.


Urshifu-RS circumvents the main counterplay to strong physical threats such as itself with the Ability Unseen Fists and Surging Strikes being a guaranteed critical hit. This paired with its good offense type combo in Water/Fighting, make it a very good Pokemon against Offense which is hard to outplay.
COUNTERPLAY IN THE BUILDER:
Urshifu-RS has ok counterplay in the builder, many things resist Water and threaten Urshifu-RS decently. Rillaboom and Volcanion are the most common examples of decent checks as they force Scarf Urshifu-RS to use Close Combat. Mega Salamence, Tapu Fini, Amoonguss, Dragonite all resist both of its STAB moves while being able to kill it.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
The main problematic part of Urshifu-RS is actually playing against it. It has two sets with completely different counterplay which don't really show themselves until they have claimed value, for example Mystic Water runs bulk and is able to 3HKO Tapu Fini after Tera, and Choice Scarf carries Ice Punch for Mega Salamence. Urshifu-RS is similar in a way to Kingambit, it is slower than a lot of other threats so just hitting it usually works best. Having Fake Out active and Chien-Pao out of the field also works decently, as Fake Out is the only consistent way of circumventing damage from Urshifu and Chien-Pao helps Urshifu's matchup chart a lot and gives it a huge boost with Sword of Ruin. It is also advised to not give the team with Urshifu a speed advantage, as that makes it OHKO would be offensive checks such as Flutter Mane, due to outspeeding it.


Flutter Mane's 135 base speed and Ghost/Fairy typing make it a very scary breaker for Offense to deal with while bolstering decent bulk and very good Special Attack.
COUNTERPLAY IN THE BUILDER:
Flutter Mane by itself is not hard to check in the builder. Most of the bulkier Darks and Steels answer it well. Mega Kangaskhan and Kingambit are the most splashable and consistent counters, and some semi bulky stuff like Calm Mind Tapu Fini, Mega Tyranitar, Assault Vest Incineroar, and Ursaluna can do a decent job checking it.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Flutter Mane can be hard to threaten out due to its speed tier and immunity to Fake Out, making Choice Specs annoying to deal with. But Flutter Mane's lackluster Physical Bulk makes it prone to getting OHKOd by stronger physical threats such as Rillaboom, Urshifu-RS, and Mega Salamence. While it also really likes to Tera Fairy to get rid of its neutrality to Kingambit's Dark-type attacks, this makes it weak to Fake Out, which hurts its pressure on the field. Flutter Mane also suffers from opponent's speed control, due to not having the best physical bulk and high but not extremely high speed.


Diancie is the most prominent Trick Room attacker that can set up Trick Room for itself and boost its defense and damage output with Diamond Storm and Body Press.
COUNTERPLAY IN THE BUILDER:
Diancie's Rock/Fairy typing is defensively unique but makes it weak to common types such as Water- Grass- Ground- and Steel-type attacks, which makes it pretty Tera reliant to fully kill Offense or set Trick Room. Urshifu-RS, Zamazenta, Rillaboom, and Mega Metagross are common checks to Diancie which can face tank all its attacks and OHKO it back.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Trick Room is very annoying to deal with for Offense, especially on a pokemon like which can be prevented by correct pivoting play and the use of Fake Out to position your breakers versus Diancie. And also Diancie is not that strong before getting Defense boosts to boost Body Press or activating Weakness Policy, so it is weak to bulky attackers who have the capability of OHKOing Diancie, such as Urshifu-RS and Mega Metagross.


Mega Metagross is the physically bulkiest strong attacker, while having 145 attack with Tough Claws and 110 Speed and the very good combo of Iron Head, Stomping Tantrum, and Thunder Punch.
COUNTERPLAY IN THE BUILDER:
Due to its extremely high damage output and very good coverage, few pokemon actually switch into Mega Metagross sufficiently. Iron Hands, Mega Scizor, and Volcanion are physically bulky Steel-resists that threaten Mega Metagross decently. Its best counters are Kingambit and Incineroar. Kingambit is a Steel-resist that is capable of threatening a KO on Mega Metagross with two Sucker Punches, and Incineroar can Intimidate Mega Metagross down after it Megas.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Mega Metagross faces similar issues with Kingambit without getting Tera, it is very prone to just getting hit. As good as the Steel-typing is, that paired with Psychic gives it a ton of weaknesses to common types such as Fire, Ground, Dark, and Ghost. This makes it weak to bulkier or faster threats packing these typing, such as Zygarde, Chien-Pao, Gholdengo, and Flutter Mane. Mega Metagross is also very reliant on speed control, not letting Mega Metagross' side use Tailwind is pretty big in the matchup as to hinder its ability to 1v1 your pokemon.


Being by far the most threatening Trick Room attackers with Guts STAB Facade paired with Ground-type STAB, Ursaluna is extremely potent into Offense the moment Trick Room goes up.
COUNTERPLAY IN THE BUILDER:
Ursaluna doesn't have actual counters to account for it in the builder. Its that straight forward. Landorus-T and Salamence pre mega can spam Intimidate on it to lower its damage output and Celesteela only gets 3HKOed by Ursaluna, so they do relatively fine.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Ursaluna is nowhere as strong without Trick Room on the field, so against Ursaluna your top priority should be not letting them set up Trick Room (not at all times, Coaching Zamazenta makes most pokemon be able to take a hit or two from Ursaluna and Urshifu-RS threatens an OHKO on Ursaluna always). Positioning is key to not lose to Ursaluna, as in Trick Room, you need to outplay and outcycle your opponent very hard to leave the Trick Room unscathed. Fake Out, Follow Me, Taunt, and priority attacks such as Sucker Punch, Aqua Jet, and Grassy Glide all do fine to chip down on Ursaluna and kill it.


Chi-Yu has the highest damage output of anything that has a decent speed tier, due to its ability Beads of Ruin and good offensive type combination in Fire/Dark.
COUNTERPLAY IN THE BUILDER:
Luckily, we have a good variety of Fire and Dark resists, most of which threaten Chi-Yu to some capacity, ranging from Iron Hands using Fake Out or Drain Punch on it, Mega Salamence setting Tailwind on it, or Tapu Fini using the turns to spam Calm Mind. Zamazenta can use Wide Guard to completely nullify Heat Wave's damage output too. But do keep in mind, you at all times need 2 Chi-Yu checks, as Heat Wave does bonkers damage on anything that can't be considered a check. Mega Tyranitar is by far the hardest counter, with massive bulk even before gaining Sand's 1.5x SpDef boost, and the ability to replace Sun which is the main thing that makes Chi-Yu an Offense killer in the first place.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Positioning versus Chi-Yu is hard due to its high damage output, if you have a not so great matchup against it, Chi-Yu is decently easily dealt with the moment you have a speed advantage and the opponent doesn't due to Chi-Yu's lackluster defensive profile on the physical side. Trick Room, Prankster Tailwind, Choice Scarf Pokemon, and generally faster pokemon threaten out Chi-Yu with relative ease if it isn't Scarfed. A lot of Protects is also a must have against Chi-Yu as while bringing in your check you don't want it to randomly get Specs Overheated under Sun, so Protect is good for scouting and getting your checks in on the field to get Chi-Yu off the field.


With phenomenal STAB in Ghost/Fighting and access to the broken move Spectral Thief, Marshadow is a real menace to a lot of Offenses, specifically ones slightly on the slower side or ones more focused on setting up.
COUNTERPLAY IN THE BUILDER:
Much like Ursaluna, Marshadow's counterplay is very limited. Ghost/Fighting has no relevant resists and Spectral Thief means you can't boost your defense past Marshadow. This means the best counterplay to Marshadow that actually works is the Flying-type Intimidators, Salamence and Landorus-T. Support Tapu Fini and Choice Scarf Tapu Fini are also decentish checks to Marshadow.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Marshadow is very frail and doesn't resist most priority attacks and most attacks from faster pokemon, making it vulnerable to faster threats. Marshadow is also a lot weaker than most of the other strong breakers such as Mega Salamence, Mega Metagross, Urshifu-RS, and Ogerpon-H. In most cases, Marshadow cannot OHKO neutrals due to this comparative lack of power, especially seen in the lesser Marshadium Z and Clear Amulet sets. Continously threatening Marshadow also helps a lot since then it cannot attack as much as it would want to, whether this be Tailwind, Trick Room, faster pokemon, or strong priority attacks. Positioning versus Marshadow is more crucial than versus most other breakers due to the combined traits of high speed, priority move, unresisted STABs, and underwhelming power; so redirection is also a good way to dissuade Marshadow for some time.


Due to the potential of having the highest damage output in the tier, Ogerpon-H can be hard for Offense teams to switch into if they cannot overwhelm it.
COUNTERPLAY IN THE BUILDER:
Ogerpon-H, while being very strong, does not lack checks. Grass/Fire STAB is checked decently well by Dragonite and Kommo-O, and is pretty hard countered by Mega Salamence and Incineroar due to Intimidate and Mega Salamence having access to Tailwind and Incineroar having access to Fake Out both of which also help teammates against Ogerpon-H. Aside from these, bulkier Zygarde and Chi-Yu do a decent job at taking a hit and then dealing good damage versus Ogerpon-H.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Like most strong pokemon in the tier, Ogerpon-H is hard to position versus, making Protect and Fake Out really good for positioning and scouting against it. Due to Ogerpon-H being normally outsped by its checks, best way of going about preventing it from going nuts is preventing the opponent from outpositioning you, whether it be getting a better Fake Out in or setting up Tailwind. Forcing your opponent to Tera something else also severely cuts into Ogerpon-H's damage output due to Tera normally doubling the damage of Ivy Cudgel. Ogerpon-H is also frail, much like Marshadow. It will fall apart to most strong attacks even if they are neutral.

 

[DerpySuX]

A Simple, Extensive Guide to ND DOU Offense
​

As most of you might know, Offense is by far one of the strongest playstyles in NatDex Doubles, but abusing this Offense can be a bit more delicate than other tiers Offense archetypes. Since the tier is so strong it is not that easy for Offense to remain offensive without losing hard to something specific, so I am gonna go over how to structure an offensive team without it falling apart to Kingambit.

PART 1: POKEMON TO USE

The Offense

​

The essential part of an offense team is the offensive pokemon you use to define your team. These pokemon make your team offensive, and generally your builds surround around supporting these high damage output Pokemon.


Kartana is a more utilitarian offensive addition, while having the most amount of attack in 181 base and having access to Beast Boost, one of its main selling points is the fact that it can set Tailwind while being so offensively threatening. While the Steel typing doesn't give it much offensively, Kartana can defensively invest to live things like Mega Salamence Hyper Voice or Iron Bundle Freeze Dry due to its already insane Attack stat. In fact, a Kartana with 232 SpDef to live Life Orb Iron Bundle Freeze Dry still has more Attack than an Adamant Max Attack Urshifu-Rapid-Strike. Kartana can also use a more offensive Substitute + Z-Move set to put more pressure on the opposing team and deal massive damage versus checks like Tornadus and Jirachi.


With a jaw-dropping damage output and bulk, near universal coverage, and the option to delete anything from existence using Steel Roller, Mega Metagross is one of the better offensive Pokemon due to its sheer amount of stats. Iron Head deals massive damage to everything that is not a resist, Stomping Tantrum hits common Steel-resists like Kingambit and Volcanion, Thunder Punch makes Urshifu-RS and Mega-Charizard-Y sad, and Bullet Punch can be used to pick off things late-game and deal massive amounts of damage to Flutter Mane and Chien-Pao. Steel Roller is the aforementioned other option, while not being as consistent of a damage dealer, Steel Roller Metagross has the very nice option of completely obliterating neutrals and less bulky resists.


The quintessential offensive pokemon. It's incredible Water/Fighting STAB combo coupled with the sheer brokenness of Unseen Fist and Surging Strikes off of base 130 Attack. With being hard to check and very hard to play around with all of these traits combined, Urshifu-RS is an incredible Pokemon to have on your offensive team. Water Bear has two main sets it can use, the very popular Choice Scarf set, and a bulkier Adamant Mystic Water set. Choice Scarf is stellar into opposing Offense, outspeeding everything at neutral bar Booster Energy Speed Flutter Mane and Deoxys-Speed, and Mystic Water is better into more Balancey structures and Trick Room due to its significantly higher damage output and ability to Protect versus Fake Out.


Marshadow's incredible offensive Ghost/Fighting STAB combo with a nice yet awkward speed tier and Spectral Thief make it a premier attacker and a very strong threat. The ability to Tera Ghost makes it very strong every setup attacker aside from Swords Dance Kingambit. Aside from the anti-sweeping abilities, Marshadow is an incredibly threatening pokemon due to its ability to hit everything in the tier at least neutrally, having Technician Shadow Sneak, and its Fake Out immunity. Marshadow's main counterplay is outpositioning, due to this, you want to deal as much damage as you can with Marshadow. Due to this, Life Orb and Marshadium Z are the main sets, both of which running Spectral Thief, Close Combat, and Shadow Sneak.


Even though its not as broken as it is in SV DOU due to the omnipresence of other Ghosts and Urshifu-RS being a better Water-type attacker, Basculegion is still an extremely threatening late-game sweeper due to the sheer power of Last Respects. Even though its a demanding sweeper, TailRoom structures (Offense structures consisting of a Trick Room setter and a Tailwind setter) can make Assault Vest Basculegion work extremely well. Gaining Flip Turn has also helped it massively, giving it an actual last move to click early game when it cannot OHKO everyone and their mothers. As mentioned before its main set is Assault Vest to let it tank hits when clicking Last Respects. Choice Scarf can also be used but it is mostly a lesser Urshifu-RS due to its lower speed and lower power and oppressiveness early game.


If Urshifu-RS is the quintessential Tailwind Bear, Ursaluna is the quintessential Trick Room Bear. Ursaluna has unparalleled damage output and massive bulk letting it live big attacks such as Urshifu-RS Aqua Jet and Rillaboom Grassy Glide even at -1. Normal/Ground is also awesome offensively for a mon as strong as Ursaluna due to the most meta relevant resist to both of those being Tier 5 Celesteela. It is one of the only Trick Room attackers who can force a kill even in a bad matchup if you position correctly, since it has the theoretical ability to OHKO every non-Celesteela target after it gets Guts activated even without Tera. Ursaluna's set is very straightforward, Facade, Single Target Ground STAB, Protect, and whatever you want as last, whether it be Substitute to protect it from Fake Out, Swords Dance to further enhance damage output and punish switches, or even double Ground STAB just in case you don't want a Defense drop.


Chi-Yu's Beads of Ruin makes it a potent breaker, dealing massive damage even to Fire resists. This combined with Sun makes Chi-Yu the most nuclear Special breaker in the tier, the moment you can give Chi-Yu a speed advantage it will apply a ton of pressure. The Fire/Dark is also surprisingly nice defensively for a strong pokemon, as Chi-Yu resists Grassy Glide, Shadow Sneak, and Sucker Punch. Chi-Yu's ability does not only boost itself, it can also boost other teammates to absurdity, such as Flutter Mane, Mega Gardevoir, or Iron Bundle. Chi-Yu can run a good range of sets, the most splashable is Choice Scarf due to the immediate speed advantage it gives. Choice Specs can make Chi-Yu by far the strongest breaker in the tier while Life Orb gives it the option to switch between the combination of Heat Wave, Overheat, and Dark Pulse while also being able to Protect, and lastly Assault Vest gives Chi-Yu actually decent bulk while still being really strong.


Ogerpon-H is the physically oriented version of Chi-Yu, as it is also an absurd Sun breaker that can 2HKO most things after Tera. It is also faster than Chi-Yu and unlike it, it can also get boosted by the other ruin, Chien-Pao. All these attributes make Ogerpon-H a potent breaker. Although it is a bit Tera reliant on getting a lot of damage done and Grass + Fire while nice has a few important things it cannot hit, notably Dragons like Mega Salamence and Fires like Incineroar. Ogerpon-H can also act like an offensive redirector for Sun so it's other attackers have an easier time versus strong attackers such as Flutter Mane, Mega Metagross, and Ursaluna. Ogerpon-H can also use a Substitute set so it cannot get Intimidated or Faked Out.


Could not bring myself to close out this section without mentioning one of the best special attackers we have had in any format, Flutter Mane. Ghost/Fairy combo on a Pokemon that strong and fast simply is not fair, being Fake Out immune and hitting everything neutrally aside from nonexistent types like Normal/Poison. Its fraility starts to not be a factor when you realize this thing only really needs to outspeed Mega Salamence, and does ridiculous damage even without maximum investment. Living something like a Mega Metagross Bullet Punch or a Chien-Pao Ice Spinner goes a long way when Flutter Mane is this strong and threatening.

The Bulk

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As much as the pure offense makes up the offensive team structure, the bulky mons are what holds Offense together and make it a playable teamstyle.


This pokemon is nothing short of incredible when it comes to patching up Offense's weakness to itself, with sheer bulk and absurd power coupled with the very nice Steel/Dark typing and the Defiant ability to abuse glues like Mega Salamence, Incineroar, and Landorus-Therian. With few actual weaknesses and Sucker Punch off of 135 base attack, Kingambit is a bulky mon that can be used in Offense that is also very good into opposing Offense. While the more common Assault Vest takes on more of a bulky role that takes on most of the meta off of sheer bulk, Kingambit can also be really offensively threatening with a Swords Dance Black Glasses set, threatening to do a lot of damage on soft checks like Choice Scarf Urshifu-RS and Chi-Yu.


A Fire/Water with Water Absorb and that much bulk is simply too good defensively. Being one of the sole consistent Flutter Mane checks even under Sun makes it a great defensive piece for Offense. It makes great progress versus fatter structures due to the sheer damage output of Steam Eruption and its physical bulk. Assault Vest and Substitute + Leftovers are both good options for Volcanion. Assault Vest makes it the most consistent check to Sun and makes it live very strong special attacks like Mega Gardevoir's Expanding Force. Substitute + Leftovers exerts more offensive pressure due to making Volcanion immune to Fake Out and make it live attacks it isn't supposed to, like Iron Hands' Wild Charge or Landorus-T Stomping Tantrum. Leftovers is especially nice when Rillaboom is so dominant, as Volcanion can get enough HP for another Substitute every other turn.


Being one of the only safe switch-ins to Choice Scarf Urshifu-RS makes Tapu Fini a valuable bulky piece in offensive teams. Calm Mind Tapu Fini can simply win games in the absence of Rillaboom and Support Fini is excellent at role compressing in more setup heavy offenses featuring pokemon such as Zygarde and Kingambit. Tapu Fini's bulk also lets it live extremely strong attacks like Sword of Ruin boosted Mega Salamence Double-Edge making Tapu Fini a nice defensive piece to have.


Being by far the most consistent answer to Marshadow, Lando-T finds itself in a wide niche where it can use a wide variety of sets to answer or kill different things. Choice Scarf sets are more damage and pivotting based, while also being able to soft check Mega Metagross and Mega Salamence. Stealth Rock is by far the most used and splashable set, Lando-T is a very consistent Stealth Rock setter while also being offensively threatening with 145 base attack Stomping Tantrum or Supersonic Skystrike.


While a nicher, more passive pick; Cresselia bolsters a lot of bulk and one of the best supporting moves ever in the form of Lunar Blessing. Cresselia is able to take on neutrals due to its massive bulk and supports its teammate with speed control in the form of Trick Room, Icy Wind, or Thunder Wave. Cresselia also has a wide attacking movepool, having coverage moves that hit common weaknesses of setup Pokemon such as Ice Beam for Zygarde or Moonblast for Chien-Pao. Lunar Blessing is a must have for any Cresselia set, but rest of the set is pretty customizable according to your structure.


Mega Scizor has the incredible niche of being a Steel type that always threatens to OHKO Flutter Mane. It also has incredible physical bulk and can invest in its HP due to Technician letting its main STAB be Bullet Punch. It matches super well into Chien-Pao, Rillaboom, and Flutter Mane, and has just enough bulk to live two Surging Strikes from Choice Scarf Urshifu-RS. Swords Dance is a very threatening bulky wincon due to its natural bulk letting it set up multiple times throughout a game. Pivot Mega Scizor takes advantage of how common the things it switches into are and keeps the momentum going, giving room for your own fast breakers like Flutter Mane or Marshadow.


Dragon/Ground is incredible on a mon with that much bulk and the ability to Tera on top of having STAB spread attacks with no immunities and a setup move that boosts its speed in the form of Dragon Dance. These combined make Zygarde the most fearsome setup sweeper and also the most slappable one. Tera Fire or Tera Normal Dragon Dance Zygarde is stupidly bulky with few actual checks and can setup by itself without much extra support, because its Ground-type STAB threatens out bulkier foes such as Kingambit, Volcanion, Iron Hands, Mega Metagross, and Jirachi. As mentioned Dragon Dance is by far the most used set, but Choice Band is also a usable set that has more immediate power while bolstering similarly absurd bulk.


With the bulk expected from a Box-Art legendary, Kyurem-Black is a very diverse and very fun pokemon with various sets that all make it leverage its insane stats, specifically its bulk and 170 base attack. Due to its stats it can 1v1 neutrals very easily, and being able to Tera gives Kyurem-Black so much value. It can check Mega Salamence and Zygarde, while being able to do extremely well into Rillaboom, Volcanion, and the genies naturally. Kyurem-Black has two main, polar opposite sets, in Dragon Dance and Assault Vest. Dragon Dance with Clear Amulet is an extremely good sweeper with its only real issue being that it is a single targetting sweeper. Assault Vest gives it even more bulk and puts Kyurem-Black in the more bulky attacker/supporter role, running moves like Icy Wind and Dragon Tail.


Well I was talking about the sheer bulk of Kyurem-Black and all that right? Since it is a Box-Art legendary? Well Iron Hands' bulk is EVEN higher. With the downright ridiculous 154 HP stat paired with solid defenses you would be very lucky to OHKO Iron Hands, even an Ursaluna has a chance to not ohko 0/0 Iron Hands with a simple Intimidate, not to even mention it living Max SpA Modest Flutter Mane Moonblast with just an Assault Vest and has the ability to OHKO it with Heavy Slam. Assault Vest is the main set, as it gives Iron Hands more bulk and lets it run all 4 attacks which it absolutely likes, as with Fake Out and dual STABs there, it wants to run all 3 of Volt Switch, Heavy Slam, and Ice Punch last. Swords Dance is also a very threatening bulky sweeper with the ability to run a lot of sets, since it only really needs the moves Swords Dance and Drain Punch.

The Support: Offensive Edition

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This is where most of what makes an Offense core good happens, the supports to the offensives. But who said good supports couldn't be offensive?


As one of the best supports in an offensive team, is also offensive itself. Mega Salamence takes big advantage of the scarcity of Flying resists as it is the strongest Flying-type in the format. It also has some crucial resistances, letting it soft check bulkier Urshifu and Volcanion and hard counter Rillaboom. With dynamic speed carrying over from Sword and Shield, the base 120 Speed Tailwind is very crucial to get your Offense up and going versus other offensive structures as outspeeding stuff is very important to not lose your damage trades. As mentioned, Tailwind is its main set, but Mega Salamence also has a neat trait of being a Physical Attacker that is not too threatened by Intimidate, as it can simply run a mixed set with Hyper Voice.


Tornadus is similar to Mega Salamence in many ways, a Flying-type Tailwind setter. But Tornadus trades a lot of defensive utility for Prankster Tailwind and weather moves, and the ability to run a Covert Cloak or Flyinium Z. Prankster Tailwind is as good as ever and Tornadus takes full advantage of this due to being a more offensively inclined pokemon and gaining the nice spread move Bleakwind Storm this gen. As mentioned, Tornadus' one and only really good set is Tailwind, but it has some options for its last slot. Most Tornadus opt out to more supportive options like Taunt, Sunny Day, or Rain Dance but a more offensive approach with Heat Wave to hit Jirachi and Mega Metagross is also an option to consider.


Rillaboom is just everything you want from a Doubles pokemon, bundled up into a package with a good BST and stat spread, very good bulk, the unique and near essential Grass-typing, quite literally unmatchable terrain and position control, a very strong STAB and a relatively strong priority move at 55 bp. Rillaboom is just about what you need and theres very very little reason to ever not use it. Even though its sheer popularity pushes its hard counters to popularity too, the sheer amount of partners it pairs up super well with is simply unparalleled, including setup attackers, Chien-Pao, and even something as simple as AV Kingambit or Volcanion. While Assault Vest is the main and by far best set on Rillaboom, its spreads are quite customizable depending on the type of role you want Rillaboom to partake in. More Hyper Offense-like structures may just prefer a maximized Attack stat while bulkier Offenses might want a bulkier Rillaboom to take hits from Flutter Mane or Urshifu-RS a little bit better.


Mega Kangaskhan is sort of weird when it comes to the Offensive Support category, it doesn't seem like it has much stats or typing to shine in a format as strong as NatDex Doubles, but its role as an Offensive Support is sort of unmatched. Normal-type is entirely unique to Mega Kangaskhan giving it an immunity to Flutter Mane's Ghost-type attacks and making it neutral to most of the metagame aside from the Fighting-types. This neutrality to the metagame is very useful as having little weaknesses lets it abuse Parental Bond Seismic Toss, 2HKOing 90% of the metagame aside from Ghost-types and bulkier Kyurem-Black, and Mega Kangaskhan can run Sucker Punch or Shadow Claw for Ghost-types. It's main set is Fake Out with high bulk investment as it does not need any attack invest to deal massive damage.


By far one of the most offensively threatening support. Sun is usually viewed as the playstyle where Chi-Yu and Flutter Mane dominate, but never count out Mega Charizard Y. It has a very high Special Attack stat with Sun also boosting its Heat Waves to ridiculous levels. It also has Helping Hand and Tailwind whenever it doesn't need to attack or needs to boost its teammates to give them a little bit more damage output. The Fire/Flying typing also gives it a nice matchup into Mega Metagross and Mega Scizor, which Flutter Mane appreciates. Mega Charizard can either lean into more damage with its good coverage in Solar Beam or Scorching Sands for Urshifu-RS and Tapu Fini, or Volcanion and Incineroar. Or it can use a more supportive set using Helping Hand, Tailwind, and Heat Wave or Overheat.


Rock/Fairy while not seeming like anything special, gives Mega Diancie a really nice niche of being a Trick Room setter that counters both Chien-Pao and Mega Salamence. Diamond Storm is also very strong into the meta, Diamond Storm + Body Press being a very nasty combo, letting it have a single target option to OHKO would be Diamond Storm answers like Urshifu-RS in a pinch. Being able to Tera Grass out of the Rillaboom, Urshifu-RS, and Spore weakness is also a massive buff to Diancie letting it more consistently kill stuff and set Trick Room. Diancie's only set is the aforementioned Offensive Trick Room setter with Diamond Storm Body Press Trick Room and Protect. The item choice is team dependant, but my favourite picks are Weakness Policy to punish Aqua Jets and Grassy Glides, Hard Stone to boost Diamond Storm's power even more, or a terrain seed to get Diancie going earlier.


Chien-Pao is especially good as a support in this format due to the sheer strength of physical attackers in the form of Mega Salamence, Urshifu-RS, Mega Metagross, Rillaboom, Marshadow, and Kartana just to give more popular examples. Chien-Pao also has a nice combo of Ice/Dark/Fighting that threatens Mega Salamence, Kingambit, and Zygarde due to its very high speed tier in 135. Chien-Pao has two main sets that solely run different items but it changes the playstyle of Chien-Pao drastically. Focus Sash is the most common choice, letting Chien-Pao stay on the field for one more extra turn to get more turns of Sword of Ruin. Meanwhile Life Orb takes more advantage of its damage by itself since 135 speed with that coverage is no joke, with Life Orb Tera Dark doing massive damage to would be checks like Volcanion.

The Support: Bulky Edition

​

The more traditional supports are still very much so still existent and help your offense structures a lot in backbone building.


Jirachi's good bulk with Steel-typing already makes it decently valuable, but Follow Me makes it an outstanding support to some of the strongest pokemon in the tier, such as Dragon Dance Zygarde and Mystic Water Urshifu-RS. Jirachi has a good matchup versus a good portion of the tier, including but not limited to: Mega Salamence, Rillaboom, Sucker Punch Chien-Pao, Choice Specs Flutter Mane, and even Kyurem-Black. Jirachi's spreads vary through teams but its sets are pretty straight forward, it runs Follow Me, Iron Head, Protect, and as last move it can choose from Encore, Trick Room, or Life Dew.


With 660 BST, the highest Speed in the metagame versus unboosted targets, and all the support moves a mon could ask for, Zamazenta is a competitor to one of the best support pokemon in the tier. The combination of incredible speed, good bulk, Coaching, Snarl, and Wide Guard, and being able to counter Kingambit and Chien-Pao, makes Zamazenta a good defensive piece for Physical Offense as this playstyle tends to be weak to a lot of stuff Zamazenta annoys. Zamazenta can really run any combination of utility + Fighting STAB (Body Press or Close Combat) + random coverage like Play Rough or Heavy Slam.


Even though the meta is super hostile to Incineroar, it finds a place as it has the three most essential tools in a bulkier support, in the form of Intimidate, Fake Out, and pivotting. These attributes and the fact that it is the hardest counter to Chien-Pao and Rillaboom, which are very common in general and with eachother. Intimidate also can be used to dissuade the damage from Mega Salamence and Knock Off can cripple Flutter Mane, Zygarde, and Zamazenta. Incineroar's main use case is utilizing its entire support kit, with Fake Out, Knock Off, Flare Blitz, and pivotting move depending on its item.


Prankster Tailwind and Encore are very annoying and very good supporting options especially in this offensive meta, giving Whimsicott a place. Covert Cloak is a nice addition for Whimsicott to run out of Hyper Offense, making it immune to Fake Out and making it be able to run bulkier sets without Protect more freely. Whimsicott only really needs Tailwind and an attacking move, the rest of the set could realistically be anything, from Encore to Fake Tears to even a weather move like Sunny Day.


Gothitelle is in a weird place, Fake Out + Shadow Tag in this meta is ultra broken and enables stupid attackers like Urshifu-RS even further, but it is also kinda frail with only a Pure Psychic-typing and is hard to fit due to that fact. Due to its typing it has very low defensive utility aside from its broken combination of moves, but this makes it more usable. Gothitelle needs to use Fake Out, Psychic, and Protect; and can choose from Taunt, Helping Hand, Trick Room, and Hypnosis.


Amoonguss is one of the lesser redirectors, but it shines due to its good matchup into Fighting-types such as Urshifu-RS and Marshadow and having the very broken support move in Pollen Puff. These attributes make it useful on Trick Room teams and setup teams, due to their inherent weakness to specifically Marshadow and Urshifu-RS. Amoonguss runs a standard moveset of Spore, Pollen Puff, Rage Powder; with a filler move such as Protect, Clear Smog, or Leaf Storm.


Indeedee-F has the unique combination of terrain control + Follow Me, which makes it a nice pokemon to have in certain structures. Psychic Surge enables faster, frailer mons even further; and cripples Rillaboom and Electric Terrain teams. Psychic/Normal isn't that bad, having an immunity to Ghost is nice against Marshadow, Flutter Mane, and Basculegion. Indeedee runs a moveset of Follow Me, Expanding Force, and Protect paired with Helping Hand, Trick Room, or Heal Pulse with Safety Goggles, Sitrus Berry, or even Eject Button.


Politoed is the best rain setter, as it is the one with the most bulk which helps it answer Urshifu-RS and Chi-Yu. Eject Button lets its teammates make the most of Rain, and Helping Hand is enough to boost your rain abusers power to absurdity. An Eject Button set with Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Helping Hand +1 whether it be Toxic or Encore or something simple like Protect.


Mew's gimmick of knowing every TM ever makes its support pool more like a support pacific ocean. Fake Out, Tailwind, Trick Room, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Snarl, Will-O-Wisp, Pollen Puff, and Coaching just to name a few. This makes Mew be able to role compress a lot of things into one slot, which is a cool niche on more setup heavy Offense teams. Any combination of these important support moves paired with an attacking move works great on Mew.


By far the bulkiest Trick Room setter, Porygon2, is sadly not that good in this format, but it is definitely usable in more Trick Room reliant Offenses. The bulk and neutrality to a lot of the tier gives it a decent matchup into a lot of less strong attackers, especially those of which you are hit by BoltBeam. Porygon2 should be only used if you're sure your Trick Room structure is stable into Fighting-types, as it overlaps weaknesses with Diancie, Ursaluna, Kingambit, and Stakataka. Porygon2 uses Ice Beam Thunderbolt Trick Room Recover to keep Trick Room up consistently.

And here is a VR for Offense mons if you wanted more clarity on their usability:
NOTE: that this is only ranked for their usability and viability in OFFENSE

Tier 1​
Tier 2​
Tier 3​
Tier 4​
Tier 5​

PART 2: COUNTERS TO COMMON OFFENSE KILLERS

​

Now onto the important part. The main point of making this post was due to the amount of good players bringing offensive structures that completely fall apart versus the most common Offense Killers, so I felt like there should be some sort of explanation on what to use to not die to opposing Offense or Offense Killers.

Pokemon​	Archetype​	Checks​	Counters​
​	Bulky Attacker​	​	​
​	Strong Attacker​	​	​
​	Fast Attacker​	​	​
​	Strong Attacker​	​	​
​	Fast Attacker​	​	​
​	Fast Attacker​	​	​
​	Trick Room Attacker​	​	​
​	Fast Attacker​	​	​
​	Trick Room Attacker​	​	don't let them Trick Room.​
​	Strong Attacker​	​	​
​	Fast Attacker​	​	it does die i guess​
​	Strong Attacker​	​	​

Kingambit is by far one of the easiest pokemon for offense to randomly lose to, for good reason. With outstanding bulk and power combined with its Steel-typing and STAB Sucker Punch is already enough, but it also has a great matchup chart and has Defiant to punish Mega Salamence, Incineroar, and Tornadus.
COUNTERPLAY IN BUILDER:
Kingambit has a few soft checks like Sacred Sword Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, and bulky Zygarde, as listed above. Zamazenta is one of the hardest counters to Kingambit, due to Dauntless Shield and the ability to use Coaching on teammates to make them stronger into Kingambit and even threaten to damage Tera Fairy sets with Heavy Slam. Iron Hands is the hardest counter to Kingambit due to Fake Out preventing any setup or side targetting and naturally resisting both STABs while being very bulky, bulky enough to easily live Tera Fairy Blast.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Kingambit's very bad speed in 50 makes it very prone to getting worn down by strong attackers, especially those of which who can face tank Sucker Punch with ease. Not ignoring Kingambit's presence and attacking is the best way to not lose to Kingambit. Also never have two Pokemon out that both severely lose to Kingambit at once, you do not want it to get a free attack off or a Swords Dance. Kingambit usually likes to be out on the field with Mega Salamence and Volcanion which patch up its weaknesses to Zygarde, Chien-Pao, Urshifu-RS and Zamazenta. If you can force out these common teammates, Kingambit becomes way less threatening.


While being one of the main supports of Offense itself, its also a weakness for Offense, due to how much it boosts the opponents damage output, it makes it very hard to deal with Chien-Pao.
COUNTERPLAY IN BUILDER:
Chien-Pao by itself is not that hard to check, it has many checks in the form of Volcanion, Urshifu, Diancie, Iron Hands, which can tank hits from even Life Orb Chien-Pao. And there is also Zamazenta, Incineroar, and Tapu Fini, which hard counter with their respective traits. Incineroar has Intimidate, which hinders both Chien-Pao and its partner greatly. Zamazenta can use Coaching to boost up a teammates Defense so it becomes less weak to Chien-Pao. Tapu Fini resists everything Chien-Pao could throw at it and sets up on it with Calm Mind.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Chien-Pao needs to stay on the field for its teammates to get the damage amp, so the best way of dealing with Chien-Pao is making it be threatened into switching out. Speed control and Fake Out work wonders at making Chien-Pao's user forfeit the Sword of Ruin boost. All forms of Intimidate also work super well, even base Salamence can hinder Chien-Pao a lot with proper play even though it is slower than it and is weak to Ice.


Urshifu-RS circumvents the main counterplay to strong physical threats such as itself with the Ability Unseen Fists and Surging Strikes being a guaranteed critical hit. This paired with its good offense type combo in Water/Fighting, make it a very good Pokemon against Offense which is hard to outplay.
COUNTERPLAY IN THE BUILDER:
Urshifu-RS has ok counterplay in the builder, many things resist Water and threaten Urshifu-RS decently. Rillaboom and Volcanion are the most common examples of decent checks as they force Scarf Urshifu-RS to use Close Combat. Mega Salamence, Tapu Fini, Amoonguss, Dragonite all resist both of its STAB moves while being able to kill it.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
The main problematic part of Urshifu-RS is actually playing against it. It has two sets with completely different counterplay which don't really show themselves until they have claimed value, for example Mystic Water runs bulk and is able to 3HKO Tapu Fini after Tera, and Choice Scarf carries Ice Punch for Mega Salamence. Urshifu-RS is similar in a way to Kingambit, it is slower than a lot of other threats so just hitting it usually works best. Having Fake Out active and Chien-Pao out of the field also works decently, as Fake Out is the only consistent way of circumventing damage from Urshifu and Chien-Pao helps Urshifu's matchup chart a lot and gives it a huge boost with Sword of Ruin. It is also advised to not give the team with Urshifu a speed advantage, as that makes it OHKO would be offensive checks such as Flutter Mane, due to outspeeding it.


Flutter Mane's 135 base speed and Ghost/Fairy typing make it a very scary breaker for Offense to deal with while bolstering decent bulk and very good Special Attack.
COUNTERPLAY IN THE BUILDER:
Flutter Mane by itself is not hard to check in the builder. Most of the bulkier Darks and Steels answer it well. Mega Kangaskhan and Kingambit are the most splashable and consistent counters, and some semi bulky stuff like Calm Mind Tapu Fini, Mega Tyranitar, Assault Vest Incineroar, and Ursaluna can do a decent job checking it.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Flutter Mane can be hard to threaten out due to its speed tier and immunity to Fake Out, making Choice Specs annoying to deal with. But Flutter Mane's lackluster Physical Bulk makes it prone to getting OHKOd by stronger physical threats such as Rillaboom, Urshifu-RS, and Mega Salamence. While it also really likes to Tera Fairy to get rid of its neutrality to Kingambit's Dark-type attacks, this makes it weak to Fake Out, which hurts its pressure on the field. Flutter Mane also suffers from opponent's speed control, due to not having the best physical bulk and high but not extremely high speed.


Diancie is the most prominent Trick Room attacker that can set up Trick Room for itself and boost its defense and damage output with Diamond Storm and Body Press.
COUNTERPLAY IN THE BUILDER:
Diancie's Rock/Fairy typing is defensively unique but makes it weak to common types such as Water- Grass- Ground- and Steel-type attacks, which makes it pretty Tera reliant to fully kill Offense or set Trick Room. Urshifu-RS, Zamazenta, Rillaboom, and Mega Metagross are common checks to Diancie which can face tank all its attacks and OHKO it back.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Trick Room is very annoying to deal with for Offense, especially on a pokemon like which can be prevented by correct pivoting play and the use of Fake Out to position your breakers versus Diancie. And also Diancie is not that strong before getting Defense boosts to boost Body Press or activating Weakness Policy, so it is weak to bulky attackers who have the capability of OHKOing Diancie, such as Urshifu-RS and Mega Metagross.


Mega Metagross is the physically bulkiest strong attacker, while having 145 attack with Tough Claws and 110 Speed and the very good combo of Iron Head, Stomping Tantrum, and Thunder Punch.
COUNTERPLAY IN THE BUILDER:
Due to its extremely high damage output and very good coverage, few pokemon actually switch into Mega Metagross sufficiently. Iron Hands, Mega Scizor, and Volcanion are physically bulky Steel-resists that threaten Mega Metagross decently. Its best counters are Kingambit and Incineroar. Kingambit is a Steel-resist that is capable of threatening a KO on Mega Metagross with two Sucker Punches, and Incineroar can Intimidate Mega Metagross down after it Megas.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Mega Metagross faces similar issues with Kingambit without getting Tera, it is very prone to just getting hit. As good as the Steel-typing is, that paired with Psychic gives it a ton of weaknesses to common types such as Fire, Ground, Dark, and Ghost. This makes it weak to bulkier or faster threats packing these typing, such as Zygarde, Chien-Pao, Gholdengo, and Flutter Mane. Mega Metagross is also very reliant on speed control, not letting Mega Metagross' side use Tailwind is pretty big in the matchup as to hinder its ability to 1v1 your pokemon.


Being by far the most threatening Trick Room attackers with Guts STAB Facade paired with Ground-type STAB, Ursaluna is extremely potent into Offense the moment Trick Room goes up.
COUNTERPLAY IN THE BUILDER:
Ursaluna doesn't have actual counters to account for it in the builder. Its that straight forward. Landorus-T and Salamence pre mega can spam Intimidate on it to lower its damage output and Celesteela only gets 3HKOed by Ursaluna, so they do relatively fine.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Ursaluna is nowhere as strong without Trick Room on the field, so against Ursaluna your top priority should be not letting them set up Trick Room (not at all times, Coaching Zamazenta makes most pokemon be able to take a hit or two from Ursaluna and Urshifu-RS threatens an OHKO on Ursaluna always). Positioning is key to not lose to Ursaluna, as in Trick Room, you need to outplay and outcycle your opponent very hard to leave the Trick Room unscathed. Fake Out, Follow Me, Taunt, and priority attacks such as Sucker Punch, Aqua Jet, and Grassy Glide all do fine to chip down on Ursaluna and kill it.


Chi-Yu has the highest damage output of anything that has a decent speed tier, due to its ability Beads of Ruin and good offensive type combination in Fire/Dark.
COUNTERPLAY IN THE BUILDER:
Luckily, we have a good variety of Fire and Dark resists, most of which threaten Chi-Yu to some capacity, ranging from Iron Hands using Fake Out or Drain Punch on it, Mega Salamence setting Tailwind on it, or Tapu Fini using the turns to spam Calm Mind. Zamazenta can use Wide Guard to completely nullify Heat Wave's damage output too. But do keep in mind, you at all times need 2 Chi-Yu checks, as Heat Wave does bonkers damage on anything that can't be considered a check. Mega Tyranitar is by far the hardest counter, with massive bulk even before gaining Sand's 1.5x SpDef boost, and the ability to replace Sun which is the main thing that makes Chi-Yu an Offense killer in the first place.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Positioning versus Chi-Yu is hard due to its high damage output, if you have a not so great matchup against it, Chi-Yu is decently easily dealt with the moment you have a speed advantage and the opponent doesn't due to Chi-Yu's lackluster defensive profile on the physical side. Trick Room, Prankster Tailwind, Choice Scarf Pokemon, and generally faster pokemon threaten out Chi-Yu with relative ease if it isn't Scarfed. A lot of Protects is also a must have against Chi-Yu as while bringing in your check you don't want it to randomly get Specs Overheated under Sun, so Protect is good for scouting and getting your checks in on the field to get Chi-Yu off the field.


With phenomenal STAB in Ghost/Fighting and access to the broken move Spectral Thief, Marshadow is a real menace to a lot of Offenses, specifically ones slightly on the slower side or ones more focused on setting up.
COUNTERPLAY IN THE BUILDER:
Much like Ursaluna, Marshadow's counterplay is very limited. Ghost/Fighting has no relevant resists and Spectral Thief means you can't boost your defense past Marshadow. This means the best counterplay to Marshadow that actually works is the Flying-type Intimidators, Salamence and Landorus-T. Support Tapu Fini and Choice Scarf Tapu Fini are also decentish checks to Marshadow.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Marshadow is very frail and doesn't resist most priority attacks and most attacks from faster pokemon, making it vulnerable to faster threats. Marshadow is also a lot weaker than most of the other strong breakers such as Mega Salamence, Mega Metagross, Urshifu-RS, and Ogerpon-H. In most cases, Marshadow cannot OHKO neutrals due to this comparative lack of power, especially seen in the lesser Marshadium Z and Clear Amulet sets. Continously threatening Marshadow also helps a lot since then it cannot attack as much as it would want to, whether this be Tailwind, Trick Room, faster pokemon, or strong priority attacks. Positioning versus Marshadow is more crucial than versus most other breakers due to the combined traits of high speed, priority move, unresisted STABs, and underwhelming power; so redirection is also a good way to dissuade Marshadow for some time.


Due to the potential of having the highest damage output in the tier, Ogerpon-H can be hard for Offense teams to switch into if they cannot overwhelm it.
COUNTERPLAY IN THE BUILDER:
Ogerpon-H, while being very strong, does not lack checks. Grass/Fire STAB is checked decently well by Dragonite and Kommo-O, and is pretty hard countered by Mega Salamence and Incineroar due to Intimidate and Mega Salamence having access to Tailwind and Incineroar having access to Fake Out both of which also help teammates against Ogerpon-H. Aside from these, bulkier Zygarde and Chi-Yu do a decent job at taking a hit and then dealing good damage versus Ogerpon-H.
COUNTERPLAY ON THE GO:
Like most strong pokemon in the tier, Ogerpon-H is hard to position versus, making Protect and Fake Out really good for positioning and scouting against it. Due to Ogerpon-H being normally outsped by its checks, best way of going about preventing it from going nuts is preventing the opponent from outpositioning you, whether it be getting a better Fake Out in or setting up Tailwind. Forcing your opponent to Tera something else also severely cuts into Ogerpon-H's damage output due to Tera normally doubling the damage of Ivy Cudgel. Ogerpon-H is also frail, much like Marshadow. It will fall apart to most strong attacks even if they are neutral.

ok I read it

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

i'd want to know what's the general opinion about hard trick room here.

 

[Willro101]

i'd want to know what's the general opinion about hard trick room here.

short answer: bad
long answer: It is mainly outclassed by semiroom but also weak to fake out and taunt. all trickroom without indeede just loses to the massive amount of priority and the ones with it are just bad.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Wdym semi tr? 3 setters 3 abusers? Cause this format works very well With me. Yknow, 50% of technical problems are due to what's between the compter and the chair. that's Why only 15% of my teams are actually viable.

 

[AIRedzone]

Wdym semi tr? 3 setters 3 abusers? Cause this format works very well With me. Yknow, 50% of technical problems are due to what's between the compter and the chair. that's Why only 15% of my teams are actually viable.

Semiroom teams are typically those that have a "fast mode" and a "slow mode". This typically involves just one trick room setter and one slow offensive pokemon, one or two fast pokemon (possibly with tailwind), and the remaining can swing either way or function well in either mode. The idea is that if you match up against a fast team (like tailwind offense) you can set trick room to secure the speed advantage, and if you match up into a slow team you can deny opposing trick room or outspeed them and win. Versatility is key with this style of team, which is why mons like Rillaboom are often seen on semiroom (its priority Grassy Glide means it can function well in both trick room and tailwind, and its fake out allows you to safely set up your speed control).

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

okay then iG I play hard room. But, i Dont see Why would it be bad? indeedee is indeedee a needed trait But! It has redirection, can setup herself (considering indeedee-f is the one u talking abt) and can imprison to check opposite tr users used to disable ours, We can Even mindgame to make the opponent use tr for us then imprison it So it Will stay. p2 is imo the second best setter, especially physdef, cause it can tank close combat from many mons while it can use the holy power of teleport and switch in, let's say, ursaluna. ursaluna is very good when coupled to teleport as it ends the turn on field So it is burned by the end of the turn. Also see, leading With one abuser and one setter. If the opponent choses to attack the abuser, it can protect, and the tr can be set If they decide to attack the setter, they dIE to the abuser, and another setter can come in, With nO threat in sight. Moreso, if a pokemon dares imprisoning tr, it'll Also dIE to the abuser. There is no place for taunt as mental herb can be équipes and Will more often be used than safety goggles Or sitrus berry, and it is more useful to the team.

 

[Smudge]

Some announcements:

Our second player survey recently concluded, and you can review the results in the new thread new thread here.

We're hosting our second Swiss tour, and the signups are now open! They'll be open until Wednesday, November 8th, 9PM PST (-7).

Also, our tier will be featured in the National Dex Farm League. It's a league for players who were not drafted to play in the Premier League so they can have their chance to shine! Signups will end sometime during the 10th-12th, so be sure to get in before then if you want a chance to be drafted to one of the six teams.

Lastly, here's this month's usage stats.

Hope everyone is having a great time with the tier!